This week we talk to Gabe Toth about his new book Fermentation Kitchen, from Brewer’s Publications. We talk about all types of food fermentation and it is a great conversation.
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Show Transcript:
AI driven and will have errors
Colter Wilson: Oh man. Oh, man, I’m liking. My new jams right now. So good.
And I’m excited to talk to you about this week show. Because we’re going to talk to Gabe Toth. He’s the author of a new book by brews publication called fermentation kitchen. Years of brewing experience, years of writing experience as well. As some distilling experience thrown right in there.
But Gabe has wrote. A book.
That has to do with all the other things that we ferment. And we do a lot of that in our kitchen. So stick around for the interview. After a quick word from our sponsors.
Colter Wilson: I’d like to welcome. Gabe Toth gave us kinda got a unique background and that he’s done a little bit of everything from brewing to writing to distilling. He’s kinda done it all. He’s worked for such breweries as Santa Fe brewing and has done distilling for companies like you’re working at family Jones now.
Right. That’s correct.
Awesome.
Gabe Toth: the family Jones production distillery up in level.
Colter Wilson: Awesome. And that’s level and Colorado. So for those of you who don’t know what level wind is and I would like to welcome to homebrewing DIY and thank you so much for coming on the show.
Gabe Toth: thanks for having me. It’s exciting to be.
Colter Wilson: Awesome. The reason I had you on the show is you are about to release a brand new book on brewers publications called the fermentation kitchen and. For those of you who’ve listened to the show for a long time. You understand my obsession with fermenting, not just beer and mainly beer.
But I would say I also have a huge personal journey that I’ve taken where I from in all kinds of other things. I think once you the bug you don’t just stop at beer, right? And made a lot of the different items that you’re going to talk about in this book, but I’d love to maybe talk about how you got into not only brewing and fermenting from the beginning, but then how it turned into other things.
Is that full kind of.
Gabe Toth: Yeah, sounds great. I started home brewing in 2006. I was straight out of college. I was in Southern Colorado. Went to school in Pueblo, Colorado. And even, you know, 15 years ago in Colorado, the craft beer scene was, it was vibrant. And I moved to the mountains of Northern New Mexico little town of a thousand called angel fire straight out of school, my first job newspaper job.
And I looked around and I said, where’s the local beer. And there was one brewery between Santa Fe, New Mexico, and well, up into the well, up into Colorado Salita Colorado. I think it was the next closest brewery. So I, I started learning to Homebrew. I had a taste for the good stuff and I just wanted to have access to it.
I wanted to learn how to make it.
Colter Wilson: Did you start off doing like a all grain? Did you go the full way upfront or did you start with like extra.
Gabe Toth: I started with extract. I, it was a couple years before or a year and a half before I really got into all grain brewing. I started off with extract and as I was brewing extract, I said, Hey, you know, what else I love it’s pickles should learn how to make pickles. And over the, over the next year and a half I was doing both kind of at the same time and then had some friends who were also really excited about beer.
And we went in on a nice a nice all grain kit and started brewing it started brewing at home all grain 10 gallons and things just went haywire from there. It, it turned into cheesemaking and then sausage-making and charcuterie had a friend who worked at the local high-end restaurant and they would offer cooking classes.
And there was one in sausage making and I told him. I’d love to swing by sometime and take that class. They said, just display these two books. And if you have any questions, you got this, don’t worry about it. So I started making sausage, I bought an old Czechoslovakia in hand grinder.
It must have been made in the era in the mid eighties at the latest.
So that, home sausage making turned into curing turned into, oh, a curing chamber. We need a meat fridge. And it’s just snowballed from there. It’s gotten out of hand from there. It got, it probably got out of hand. Before that moment, it just it just kept snowball.
Colter Wilson: I feel like once you get the bug and it can start from for me, I’m very similar to started with home brewing of beer. Obviously you usually, once you start that fermentation you bust off into things like, Hey, I’ll make some cider. That’s a pretty easy transition. then all of a sudden you start to realize all the fermented foods around you and you talk about in your book right off the bed, the bat, you talk about the different methods, right?
Not only just from the different types of wellness trends that are out there, but you also discuss like there’s differences between like yeast, molds and bacterias, and they ferment in different ways. I’d love to hear a bit about what those differences.
Gabe Toth: Yeast. East is pretty straightforward. We w we all know how yeast works. Takes up sugar is a various sorts, a pretty narrow range of sorts, but takes up sugar and produces CO2 and ethanol. But. Bacteria is really a bacteria is the workhorse in the fermented food world, especially I would say lactic acid bacteria, similarly takes up available sugars and converts it into lactic acid.
This is, I mentioned at CBC last week, this is probably your most relied on fermentation path. And in the fermented foods, world it’s cheese, it’s sausages like summer sausage or salami. It’s a it’s, part of, a lot of beer fermentations is fermented vegetables, pickles of various kinds.
And then there’s, there’s a. Sciatic acid fermentation, another bacteria, the CDOT bacteria, primarily, and it’s actually taking up ethanol and digesting ethanol. It’s taking this fairly hostile strongly antimicrobial ethanol and turning it into an even stronger and even more hostile substance.
Acidic acid. Now that’s here. That’s your vinegar and it’s part of your kombucha fermentation. There’s it’s a, it’s a weird world these different metabolic avenues that, that exists that you can take advantage of depending on what you wanna make.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. And one of the things. Or different types of molds as well. So not just the bacterias, but like for example one that always sticks out to me is like a Koji, for example like for like you would see in a Saki fermentation, a lot of people use them to break down meats, for example, is a fermentation method.
How do those work a little differently than like you would see with a standard lactobacillus type of, for me.
Gabe Toth: Yeah. Koji, I think is absolutely fascinating. We weren’t able to really dive into Koji. We got into some theory, I think, in the book, but we’re trying to go for low hanging fruit for very accessible, approachable methods for the book. But Koji I think is absolutely fascinating.
And I know that this isn’t being video recorded, but I have a couple of barley or beer based musos here on my desk. Koji is particularly interesting to me because it’s relying on this mole, this aspergillus, or as a, which you’re culturing and you’re growing up on a. On a very basic medium, like some rice generally.
And you’re adding that into a it depends for me. So you’re adding it into a very salty, secondary, medium that will prevent the koji from actually growing and thriving and multiplying. But it’s already created this whole. Galaxy of enzymes, Koji starts growing and it just, now it’s just squirting out all these different enzymes as it grows and producing all this stuff.
And there are amylases, there are proteases when you’re making me. So you’re taking advantage of the proteases the protein degrading enzymes that will break down your. Whatever your secondary media is it might be beans. It might be grain. I have some some barley miso here in and a black bean stout miso that I’ve just been hanging out on my desk for the last year or so waiting for them.
Yeah, waiting for the right moment. But then when you, but then when you take me, so when you apply it to soccer or show to you, you’re actively growing up, you’re propagating it. using parallel fermentation where you’re taking advantage of the amylase production of the meso of the sorry of the coach.
You have a small fermentation of starter Koji growing on rice that you add to another batch of cooked rice. And then you add the yeast and the Koji is converting starches in the race into sugars. And the east is taking those triggers up and turning them into ethanol. And then you take that.
And add it to a bigger batch of rice and you’re stepping up this this fermentation, this parallel fermentation of both Koji and yeast to create a really interesting and really unique product that that there isn’t really a parallel for in in the beverage world. It’s yeah, it’s cozy.
It’s fascinating.
Colter Wilson: It’s super fascinating to me. It’s also one of my favorite whenever. talk to my fermented food friends, which I do have a group of friends that are fermented foodies. And I’m always just I’m overly fascinated by kojis because of that incident. Enzymatic power that it has, it’s I’ve seen people use them to to convert a steak and almost tenderize it in a way. It’s like breaking it down. Then you wash off the Koji and then you cook a steak and you’re like, whoa, this is the most tender thing I’ve ever seen. And that is just speaks to the funky uniqueness of that particular substance.
Or really it’s a mold that just is somewhere that you’ve never seen anywhere else. It’s really a unique thing out there when it comes to all these things.
Gabe Toth: Yeah, my wife told me once I made a couple of pork chops and marinade them with Koji maybe a little soy sauce for some salt and. Korean chili paste and let the, plenty of Koji and let it really just work and work on the steak for a day or two, and then put them on the grill.
And she said they were the report chops. They were the best steaks, pork or beef or of any kind that, that she had ever had. It was it was remarkable. What a good miso marinade will do to a piece of meat. I had heard of that, but I’d never applied it until this summer.
And it was just.
Colter Wilson: it’s really amazing. One of the things that you talk about through it, the book though, is you go into the different types of foods that are out there, starting with I think that when we get into the easiest kind of fermentations and food out there, we probably encounter the most, you talk about, obviously the baking of bread
and I’d love to hear maybe some of the journeys you’ve had through baking and maybe you have a couple of little tips or tricks in there maybe getting that really perfectly beautiful, airy bread, I’d love to hear them.
Gabe Toth: Yeah, bread is tough. Bread takes practice. It’s at the beginning of the book, but I mentioned it. Don’t be discouraged by failures in bread. Bread is difficult and it takes practice for me baguettes. And I have a recipe in the book for baguette and baguettes were where my white whale.
I would, I like to go out on a camping trip. Every fall, we don’t, I used to hunt. We don’t have the space for an entire animal at home right now, and, in freezer storage, but I still like to go out in the fall and take a few days and get out in the mountains and sleep in the truck and uh, Just get back out in the mountains for a bit.
And every year for, 10 years, 15 years probably I would pack up the truck and one of my go-tos is is just a good sandwich and I would bake these baguettes at home and they would be just a little to dance and. They were fine and I would eat them, but they’re, they were just good enough.
And the last couple of years I started experimenting with the thickness of my dough the water to flour ratio and going for a thinner dough going for, less, less folding and less needing. And. More water, more allowing the allowing the natural rise of the DOE to create gluten rather than working the dough intensively.
And, I still remember that first moment, just crystal clear when I pulled, I could feel the first time I moved my hydration rate up to. This is I’ve. I found it. I found the secret. It was it was a transcendent moment. It was just one of those small victories in life where you. Oh my God, that was it.
I’d make that bread every couple of weeks. Now every opportunity I have, I’m going to make a batch next week.
Smoke some I think it’s 70% or maybe 75%. I could feel the dough is different. And then I opened the oven and took the, took my bag at pan out and. up the first loaf and just hafted it.
I could feel the difference. It was just, it was like a balloon. It was light as air. And I just went, oh my God, this is it. smokes and meats at work and make some sandwiches for the staff able to make those baguettes. just so it’s, it’s a very deeply personal thing to me. I love a great sandwich and the right bread is absolutely crucial to do a great sandwich.
Colter Wilson: and I would agree that bread is, I thought brewing beer was hard. You, it takes a few batches to get it down, brewing beer is still cooking, right? You still have to follow a process. And, but it’s a it is a one of those beverages that can be very repeatable.
I feel like bread is one of those things that you’re really cooking by. And there’s something to like, Hey, this is bread. My grandmother made, right? Like that there’s a bit of that, like you could even call it witchcraft to it, but in the end it is, there is a science to it as well.
it’s a little more subtle than beer is. And it’s things like. For me. I think we all did the sourdough trend over the pandemic and I made be some starter and I’ve done, of sourdough was in my first loaves. Thick bricks that at least they Rose A. Little bit.
And now time and practice you end up now when I make a blow for sourdough, I have an oven spring that blows people’s mind. It’s like photo. Perfect. And you just it’s amazing how you can do that with the practice. lot of it is feel, and it’s like, it’s knowing when, and you talked about the needing and get in that gluten.
It’s the, this dough is at the right spot. And I need to stop now and I need to let it have that bulk fermentation. that fermentation process does build that lattice work in there. And it’s amazing, at least for me personally how I’ve gone down that journey and how you write about it in the book is also very similar in that, that there’s a, this.
Yeah, the bread is is something where out the get-go, it’s not.
Gabe Toth: Yeah, and for me it was a process of. Geez. I probably have eight or 10 bread books for me. I always approach food and cooking, or I always used to approach when I was learning. When I was I don’t want to say that I’m not actively learning about food anymore, but when I had much less sort of baseline knowledge, baseline and understanding, I would approach food from a very sort of academic standpoint and want to just learn as much as I could about it.
And, I probably have eight or 10 bread books. And it was a matter of going through and looking at different methods and trying different techniques and different methods and trying to understand what worked and why it worked. And what was going to work for my own preferences in my own schedule.
I’m not a professional baker. I don’t have time to wake up at three in the morning start needing or start dividing or whatever. The batch that was mixed midnight or 8:00 PM. And, w what are the things that I can adjust?
are the levers that I can pull to. To tweak the process to make it work my schedule, around my preferences, around what I, and still get the bread that I want to get. But it was it was also a very hands-on learning process where you go, okay. I think this bread feels like it’s.
Like properly proofed, but I don’t really know until I bake it. And I see if it’s whether it rises and it’s a lot of trial and error, you go it, it rose well. Two months ago when it was 76 degrees in the kitchen, but now it’s, 70 degrees in the kitchen and it’s been the same amount of time.
And I think it feels good, but I don’t really know because I don’t have that much practice and it just it does take a lot of trial and error. It takes a lot of okay. Bread.
Colter Wilson: Yeah.
Gabe Toth: That is. I think when you get a little practice, it becomes tougher to make really bad bread that you just don’t want to eat, but it might be bread that you do something different with you.
Maybe you make toast with it, or, might not be a sandwich loaf, but you do something else with it. You make bread crumbs or something. It’s rarely a total loss, but it definitely takes, it’s very, it’s a lot of trial and error to, to really nail it down. People spend their entire lives, just mastering w a couple of different types of bread that they just love.
Colter Wilson: Yeah I wanna move on to specifically your hot sauce area. And because I have a, I have an actual reason for that. It is like hot sauce season right now. It is we in the
Gabe Toth: Yeah.
Colter Wilson: it, it is like, all everybody’s peppers are coming on, tomatoes are hitting. And really we’re just at the height of just in general, like the kitchen fermented stuff is like,
Gabe Toth: Oh, my God, my tomatillos are just going wild.
Colter Wilson: yeah we’re in the, we’re in the thick of it right now. And for me, I. Started a few years ago making my own little fermented hot sauces. Take a bunch of Fresno chilies and throw some Hoben arrows in there. A 2% salt solution or more like a 3% salt and water solution and just let them rip and then turn them into just this amazing hot sauce.
This kind of raw hot sauce. And I started sharing it with friends and I’ve now got an entire group of people that are like super into making hot sauce every year, because it’s so good. And actually my favorite part of it is when I strain it through a sieve at the end, end up with I put into a dehydrator, a chill.
I dry out all the chili powder when it’s all done and all the. And it makes the most amazing acidic chili powder that I can’t get anywhere else because it’s all my old
Gabe Toth: Wow.
Colter Wilson: And so
Gabe Toth: What do you do with that?
Colter Wilson: I put it on thing. It becomes a spice it’s part of my kitchen, right? Yeah. It’s like when you’re, you want to put chili powder on something, it’s this chili powder and it has this it has this fermented Tang to it.
That is so good. But that’s.
Gabe Toth: I might use that for the next book, but I’ll give you credit.
Colter Wilson: Awesome. Awesome. I also like to use everything right. And and in the end and I share it with people and they’re all like, whoa, where did you get this? I’m like, you can’t get anywhere else. But it is it is a cool thing. But the cool part for me is that I have a season for that.
I have a season when I make my hot sauce is, and right now we’re in that phase, if you were to say right now, you’re at the height of your season, is it? You’re what are you fermenting right now? And in what are you? Yeah, what are you fermenting right now?
Gabe Toth: My cucumbers are tapering off right now. I want to give you a caveat here. I narrowed my garden scope this year, a little bit. I’m wrapping up my master’s degree. I have, I have a lot else on my plate at the moment. So the garden was a little less planned, a little more haphazard and little narrower this year.
But I’ve made a lot of pickles. A lot of I like this is the first year that I’ve done sandwich slices, big, long sort of oblong slices. And I just brought some of those to work, to, to keep around for lunch. I like making a uh, pepper pickle every year. That’s one of those things that I can make at home nowhere else.
It’s not at the store. It’s not, it’s not at the grocery store. It’s not at the farmer’s market. It’s not at whole foods. I have to make that if I want it and I love it. What else am I making right now? I mentioned my tomatillos. I actually have a part of Brian cooling on the stove. I was talking about figuring out timeframes when, when you can squeeze these things in, around, around your work schedule.
I boiled up a batch of Brian last night and I have a big bowl of tomatillos that I harvested yesterday that I’ll just split in half and throw in with some white onion. We’ll see what what peppers are popping in the garden? I have some, I know I have some Thai chilies.
I have some, Cayenne’s have a couple of my very first what do they call a scorpion peppers, Trinidad scorpion. A lot of Dale going into the pickles, that stuff that’s coming out of the garden. My deal actually, what to see last year. I know it’s sprouting up just all over the place.
Th it’s not in the garden, it’s in the garden, but it’s everywhere else now. Yeah, I like a lot of Dylan, my pickles.
Colter Wilson: That’s actually one of my favorite things about deal though, is like that It just grows
Gabe Toth: It just goes crazy.
Colter Wilson: yeah. You just pick it as you need it and it’s it’s.
Gabe Toth: Yeah. You just walk outside and, oh, there’s some dill like in the flowers. Okay. Let’s grab a handful and throw it in the pickles. that’s about all I’m fermenting at the moment. I think I I do want to get out to the farmer’s market the next couple of weekends and see what kind of peppers or.
Around. like to get a couple hot sauces going sooner than later. it’s that time of year. I don’t want to, I don’t want to miss the window. I didn’t have time to really grow them and care for them this year, but I don’t want to miss the window.
Colter Wilson: In your book you have, I’m looking at, I’m actually looking at it right now. And it is there are so many recipes in this book, uh, that you, I it’s awesome. It’s awesome. And so if you’re listening to this podcast right now, obviously pick up the book and give it a read, but it is. There, there is a lot here. would say you’ve probably got 50 or 60 recipes here, right?
Gabe Toth: Yeah, it’s a lot of recipes, but they’re all different. To me. It’s not a cookbook or a recipe book, but a book of jumping off point.
You’re not you and I, and whoever else out there, we’re not fermenting food at home because we want to follow. We want game’s recipe for giardiniera. We want to make something that’s uniquely ours, that we can grow in the garden, or that we have a specific taste for, I tried to tackle this.
Sort of categories and methods as possible to give people a a lot of starting points, a lot of ideas to look at and say, that’s what I have in mind, but I want to do this. The relish sounds great, but what if we, what, if we tried it with all this zucchini and some oregano or whatever it is, whatever the light bulb is that goes off above your head.
Hopefully there’s a recipe in here that’s. That embodies that method that gives you a place to start and say, that’s what I want to do. And I can adapt that to this vision that I have, because that’s all, that’s why we’re all making fermented foods because we have this, this desire to create what we want to eat, what we want tastes.
Colter Wilson: Yeah, I think that’s the best way of putting it. And it is something where you cover everything here you’ve got from. Sorry to kombucha, to vinegars meat, dairy, all of it. It’s all here. It’s all the different types of fermentation. And to me, fermented food is something, every single human culture, we all have some sort of fermented food, it’s just part of what we do. And I think that you covered.
Gabe Toth: That was the goal was to, to give a lot of options. One of the things that I thought about a lot when I was working on this, and even before I was working on this, when I was brainstorming the, just the broad idea for this. was thinking back to 2007 eight when I was learning all these things.
And at the time you, if you wanted to make bread, you had to buy a book about bread.
Colter Wilson: Yeah.
Gabe Toth: If you wanted to make charcuterie, you had to buy a book about or, if you wanna make cheese, you buy a book about cheese. And if you’re me, that means you buy.
Two books about cheesemaking and all three of the sharkutery books that were available on the on the market at the time and five books about bread. And this book isn’t necessarily going to make you an expert in any one of those things. If you really want to master any of those things you need to do, you need to buy those expert texts and they’re actually.
Recommendations and back of the book, there’s a bibliography where we, where we identify some of those books that are really great resources, but this is the book that I really wish I had in 2006, 2007. That’s it’s detailed enough for, kind of a. I’m not an academic.
I I manage a distillery. I throw a grain bags in the morning and then I do TTB paperwork in the afternoon, I, I’m a beer nerd and I’m a whiskey nerd and a fermentation nerd. And I want to know not just what’s happening, but why it’s happening, how is it happening and how can I.
How can I make adjustments to that? How can I tweak those processes? And my goal was to put something together with enough detail to, to satisfy that level of curiosity and enough breadth to, give people a lot of a lot of places to maybe dip their toes into. Into the waters of the fermented foods world.
Now, there, there are a ton of options to, to find the right fit for you to go maybe I want to make cheese or maybe I want to make bread, or maybe I thought I wanted to make cheese, but now I think kombucha is super weird and interesting. And I want to give that a try. There’s a lot out there and.
Hopefully this will this will satisfy enough. People’s curiosity to at least take that first step and get involved.
Colter Wilson: Yeah I couldn’t agree more. I think that the the process of fermentation. When you’re learning to brew or even really distill the first step you have to learn is how to format. I think that’s what it’s the cool thing about extract homebrewing is it teaches you to ferment really well.
You don’t have to worry about the whole like mashing part. And if you ferment beer really well, Then it makes the all-grain process so much more easier because you’ve already fig FA factored out the part you have the least control over and that’s the fermentation.
Yeah. We all think we have a lot of control and then. To me, it really, that, that same just transfers right over into the fermented food, because it is a lot of the same things. It’s Hey, we’re going to get this thing that we’re going to get this thing in the right type of solution to basically get the kind of chemical reactions that we want from whatever type of microbe that we’re going to use to make our fermentation happen.
then you still just got to wait and see what comes out the other end. And it is what it is when it’s done. And there’s something cool about that. And I don’t know, that’s just me, but is something cool about it. I’d like to actually thank you for coming on the podcast. I let’s do a couple of things.
I’ll make sure that I get a link here in the show notes to the book. What this is September 16th, when we’re doing this recording. When is your actual launch date?
Gabe Toth: As I understand it, the 27th that’ll go out from Amazon. The brews association actually had a handful of copies. They had a boxer too at CBC. I don’t think pre-orders have gone out yet, but they had, they had some copies available. It was supposed to be last weekend, but there is a, supply chain is.
Colter Wilson: Yeah, shocker.
Gabe Toth: Paper, but there, there is a paper supply chain snag, and I believe it will be out September 27th is what I’ve been told.
Colter Wilson: Awesome. If you’re listening to show and this will come out actually before September 27th, so that’ll work out head on over head over and check out a bruise publication and a, you can pre-order the book today. Also I will put a link to. Amazon, do a, an Amazon link to the book as well.
And there you could pre-order it as well. And they’ll ship it right out to you. I’ve done pre-orders from brewers publications many times, you get that book that day, even sometimes a day early. So a nice thing if you do the pre-order I happened to be in Colorado, so I think I just get mine faster, whatever. And
Gabe Toth: I can’t make any. But it seems like the supply chain snag has cleared up if they had some copies at the craft brewers conference. I’m not going to say that you’re going to get them before September 27th, but it seems like the supply chain is flowing smoothly and it’s possible.
Colter Wilson: It’s.
Gabe Toth: We’ll say it’s.
Colter Wilson: But you should
Gabe Toth: Anything is possible.
Colter Wilson: but you should totally pre-order it. yeah. So I’ll put a link there in The show notes and Gabe, thank you so much for coming on ? Homebrewing, DIY. I was excited to talk to you because this is a subject that I love so near and dear to my heart.
Well first, I’d like to think Gabe for coming on the show. , great guests like him really just make this podcast and making this podcast amazing. Like I said, head over to homebrewing, diy.beer and look in the show notes and we will have a quick little nice link there that would get you to be able to.
Check out his book and pre-order it. So get, get that done. If you’re interested in fermenting in your kitchen. I’d also like to thank all of our patrons over a patriotic cause a you, the show can come to you week after week, head on over to patrion.com forward slash homebrewing. DIY, give it any amount.
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I’ll give you an example. I just recently in the last couple of months got, and I’ve had a few reviews that have said that I had recently had issues with my audio being leveled all over the place. And so that actually. I drove me to try a new audio editor. That’s the last couple of shows that you’ve listened to or in my new audio editor. And kind of liking it. It’s it’s a, it’s a slick little machine we’re trying here. But it does help me with some of the levels, because one of the problems you have when you do audio, is that. One machine sounds like a different machine. So what it sounds like in my headphones may not be what it sounds like in your car. And so I I’m working with my new audio editor that I think gives me a much more consistent volume level. As far as levels go with me, my guest and in everything. . Let’s let’s wrap this puppy up and I’ll see ya next week on homebrewing DIY.
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