Today I talk with Jamie Carmichael finings expert from Murphy and Sons. They make finings for pro brewers and we discuss the process for making clear beers.
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Show Transcript
There will be many errors this is AI created.
Colter Wilson: One of the things I love about making beer is when I can make a beautiful crystal clear beer, don’t get me wrong. Last week, we talked about hazy IPA’s and when they’re supposed to be hazy, I want them that way. But when I want to make a logger, I want it to be bright. So we’re talking to Jamie Carmichael and we’re going to talk to him about making clear beer on home brewery, DIY.
And welcome back to homebrewing DIY the podcast that takes on the do it yourself, aspect of homebrewing, gadgets, contraptions, and parts. The show covers it all on this week. Show we’re talking with Jamie Carmichael. Janie’s the. Technical sales director for Murphy and some limited, they make findings and brewing equipment and products for the brewing industry.
And he’s based here in the United States. And we’re going to talk to him about techniques to making very clear beer. So I’m excited. Stick around for the interview. But first I’d like to thank all of our patrons over a Patrion it’s because of you that the show can come to you week after week, head on over to patriot.com forward slash homebrewing.
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We also have other banners such as brew father and beer brew in a bag.com or the brew bag. And clicking on those links is also going to support us, not a ton going on in my brewery right now. I actually was a little sick last week. I. Apparently got the show out, but was unable to do the blog post. I was held up in bed.
I didn’t have COVID-19. I just had a really bad too fake. And, uh, it was a pretty miserable experience. And, uh, but I am feeling better this week, so pretty excited about that, but, uh, yeah, it’s been a, a rough time down here in the Wilson. House. So, but excited to get this week’s episode out, also excited to possibly get a brew day in this week.
Uh, I, I, to, I have a few beers, I want to brew. I want to brew a Saison and I also want to do an hazy APA, just because the show last week where I talked to Brandon snaps gave me some ideas of how I want to change up my hazy IPA. So that. You know, can maybe get a more consistent product. I feel like the hazy IPA has been my white well, so we’ll get through it.
Well, let’s dive into the episode. Let’s talk to Jamie Carmichael and we’re going to talk about techniques for making clear. Yeah.
I’d like to welcome Jamie Carmichael. Jamie’s a technical sales director for Murphy and sun, which is a w what would you say they do? They, they sell brewing supplies, right? W is that what you would say? .
Jamie Carmichael: We make, uh, you know, some, some brewing supplies, some, some beer agents and, you know, we supply with everything we’ve been in the allied industries as they call it for, for commercial breweries since 1887, we’ve got a long back catalog.
Colter Wilson: That’s a real long time.
Jamie Carmichael: Yeah. Yeah. It’s um, yeah. And in that time, you know, it was still kind of been, uh, you know, they reached no location, which is a gravity fed kind of brewery from, uh, the, you know, the mid 19th century, um, you know, in, in the Midlands of the UK. So that’s, our headquarters is a small company and we can focus on, you know, supplying breweries with, you know, beer processing AIDS and.
You know, almost kind of most things that you need to make, make good beer.
Colter Wilson: Well, Jamie is, uh, the United States technical cells director. And you’re originally from, uh, Scotland and you’ve been studied brewing, distilling, and then you’ve also worked in as a ho. You’ve been a homebrewer you’ve worked as a professional brewer.
Let’s let’s start with how you started home brewing and how that turned into it, entire education for you. How did, how did that all happen?
Jamie Carmichael: Yeah. I mean, I, I left school. I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. And Adam went to Scotland and if he didn’t know where he went to do and he needed a job, you went in, you know, you worked in a bar and, uh, eventually I kind of saved up some money and bought a plane ticket and I can have flew over to the United States for a little bit.
This would have been 2005, 2006, and I traveled rider. And then I, you know, I ended up heading in San Francisco and visited anchor steam brewery. We did the tour and it was really a great tour around the brewery there and had had a couple of beers at the end. And, um, one of the brewers came out and this was just kind of before the time, if you’re not official going meet the brewers.
And he, yeah, I scruffy guy wearing overalls and he came behind the tasting bar, import himself a beer and answered a couple of questions and then went back to work. And I thought that was, that was kind of cool. And then I ended up in Australia. Uh, at home brewing is pretty, pretty big in Australia. They said all the, you know, these Cooper’s home brew kits and in the supermarket.
So you can go to the supermarket, you can buy your groceries and you can put in a, a home brew kit. You know, we, you know, I was. In my twenties and living with this guy, we w we bought one of these kits. So we went in it together and, you know, poured this syrup and some water into a bucket and added some yeast and thought, thought we were amazing.
Uh, and I kind of connected the dots between what I’d just done, you know, I I’d caused it to happen. And then, you know, this, this memory foam, it can a few months earlier anchor steam brewery where this kind of guy who, who, who got to. Drink beer at work. And I said, Hey, that’s, um, that’s a job for me. I think I’ve decided my, my vocation in life.
And you know, when you grow up in Scotland, you know, you got to high school and, you know, tertiary university education is free and they, they give you when you’re leaving school. Uh, they give you this, this really big book, uh, of all the universities in Scotland with all the courses. Uh, the EUCAST book and you can look through pages and pages of this, this massive tome of, uh, education.
And I remembered, you know, kind of six years later that when I was going to had been reading this, this book, that there was a course in my hometown on brewing and distilling, you know, at this university called Harriet watt. Yeah. So I was kind of, by that stage, I was living in Queensland. I was working in this, this, this resort in a pool bar, you know, one of these ones that people swim up, uh, I was going to living up there and, you know, living in a van and, uh, going to know this is before, you know, kind of smartphones that kind of go to the internet cafe.
Okay. And filled out this application form, and you’re not going to have to email my dad to go into the app ticket, to find paperwork and apply to go to university in Scotland, you know, to go and study brewing and distilling. And yeah, absolutely loved it. If they didn’t, you know, make me graduate. I I’d potentially still be there.
It was, um, you know, pretty pleasant lifestyle.
Colter Wilson: And then after that you went right into pro brewing or were you home brewing the whole time? W, you know,
Jamie Carmichael: we home-brewed our university, it was splendid because they, you know, the system was this old kind of pilot brewery made nice beer and they got to Nate taken a bags of malt from like Chris malting was one I remember.
And then they had some stuff from, um, you know, from virome and some, some bags there and you’d go, and I can’t remember the name of the, the calculator at the time. This would have been kind of 2006, you know, you’d. Yeah, we all started home brewing together. Um, you know, the 10 brewing students that were in the year and we’d kind of go down to the pilot brewery and speak to grant McKernan, who was the, the pilot, uh, brewery kind of lead down there.
And, you know, you’d have to find them, you know, quite often he was maybe walking around the block. Smoking a kind of rolled up cigarette or something like that. And you’d go find him and get him to open up the, the malt room and you’d weigh out your grains and, you know, find some hops in the, in the pilot lab and kind of famille them up and, you know, go take a bag of milled grain and put it in your, you know, in the locker and then take it home in the bus.
Um, so we, you know, we were kind of homebrewing, um, all through university. You know, occasionally we did, we did, we did step to go buy some materials from a home per store. It was, it was kind of nothing, nothing like it is now. And you know, if you, if you wanted to drink beer, you know, even not even as kind of ambitious as the beers he had commercially and are the only way to, to drink them was you had to kinda make them yourself.
So, you know, as far as kind of hoppy beers and big beers or. You know, Imperial stouts that, you know, we could get and drink in Scotland in 2005, you know, we were making, making a road, you know?
Colter Wilson: Yeah. It’s, it’s amazing. The amount of variety of beer you can get at a brewery today is compared to even 15 or 20 years ago.
Right. And that’s a global thing. It’s not, I know we talk about it here in the United States, like, Oh, microbreweries, a whole thing, but even in the UK for a long time, You know, it was a lot of this very much the same styles over and over again. And, and now you can pretty much get any beer there, right?
Jamie Carmichael: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was, you know, there, there was relay, I mean, relay led kind of have done well, you know, there’s a campaign for relay on camera, which, you know, you know, they kind of say themselves, they kind of, you know, they completed their mission, you know, so. You know, with the home brewing, we would go to two relay festivals.
Um, yeah, there’s a variety there, you know, there’s certainly a spectrum. Um, so there, there was that, um, yeah, potentially can make German beer bars, but you know, right now it is. It’s amazing. You know, I live in new England and you can go to a gas station and be, be, um, overwhelmed with, with joyous. It is really fantastic.
Colter Wilson: It really is. But, and even though you’re a new England and I’m sure you like your, because you sell to breweries, you’re, you’re, you’re probably living in a land of new England IPA, just like the rest of the country, but I brought you on the show for a specific reason. And I want to talk about brilliantly beautiful, clear beer.
And, and so, yeah. I, I personally, you know, when a style wants is meant to be hazy style, a Hefeweizen or a new England style or hazy IPA, you know, I go for that style. But for the most part, when I make other types of beer of Lawndale, a logger, uh, You know, a standard West coast IPA I’m, I’m looking for, uh, that brilliantly clear beer to me.
If it’s meant to be a clear style, I want it to be as crystal clear as possible. And I’d love to talk to you about some. Tr tips and tricks that you would give anybody at a Homebrew level on making your beer as clear as possible all the way. And I think we should start with maybe process and some things that you could do as part of your process to really just make sure that you you’re, you’re setting yourself up right.
To get the clearest beer possible. Yeah.
Jamie Carmichael: I mean, know I’m a finding expert now, but you know, I, I, you know, dumb brewing science and I’ve worked in breweries and, you know, findings are an aid, you know, they’re, they’re not the silver bullet, you know, you do need raw materials, selection, and you do need to, you know, the, the process in place, uh, and, and the fighting is just give you that, you know, help you get that.
Last mile. So, you know, we’re very lucky. I mean, you know, sometimes why I say with my position here, you know, cause I have mostly worked with commercial breweries as you know, commercial brewing of, uh, being United States is quite often the brewing kind of English styles on, you know, German equipment with kind of, uh, you know, American enthusiasm.
Uh, so it can be a little bit kind of kinda complicated to get them into the actual vessels, but, you know, for Homebrew side, you know, the, the raw materials which are available, you know, we’re on par with, you know, what we said, where they’re going to craft be earlier that, you know, there’s some really fantastic raw materials out there, and it does start with the malt.
You know, the, the British style was using a kind of very well modified malt, uh, that, you know, required, you know, not much processing by the brewer. So what you saw was it was kind of easy to kind of break up. There was very little kind of protein, uh, laughed. He didn’t, there was no requirement for a kind of protein rest eat during the mash.
Absolutely using a, like a weld quality, well modified malt, or if you’re, you are choosing, you know, to be more of a German style that you understand the, the additional processing requirements that you need to put in place upstream in the mash. Uh, and then through to, to boiling, you know, the. Absolutely. I think the most critical thing for the coagulation of proteins is the, you know, a very vigorous boiling it’s, you know, a lot of it is there’s the heat involved, but the actual, so actually, you know, the, the, the kind of turbulence in the, in the boil is one of the things which really augments the coagulation of the proteins.
Yeah.
Colter Wilson: So I’d like to ask some questions there just a bit. So, you know, personally there there’s all kinds of debates out there right now where it’s like, should you boil hard? Should you boil? Just barely rolling and. Obviously it’s, I think it also depends on the type of beer you’re trying to make, but, you know, for example, you talk about the cooperation of the proteins and, and, you know, boiling hard helps that happen faster.
Um, w is it. You know, a more vigorous boil makes it so that those proteins coagulate more, or if you have a slower boil it’s harder to achieve. Is, is that, is, is that the science behind that? Yeah.
Jamie Carmichael: Yeah. I know them. Um, Yeah, it’s quite late over here that the name escapes me, but the, the brewer Oh, guard and in, in, in Belgium, uh, who kind of moved down to Texas, I believe his, his trick was the, um, you know, for maintaining a stable haze where this just to kind of simmer.
Similar to the boiling wort. Um, whereas, uh, you know, if you want to get those really big flocks of the heartbreak and, you know, kickstart the formation of the cold break, you know, it’s the mechanical vigor. I think when I home brew. I’ve only recently we entered kind of brewing world recently, you know, prior to, uh, you know, prior to this, I was either working in a brewery where, you know, you would take home.
We, you know, kind of wonky labeled beer underfill beers, or I was going to self-sufficient for beer from work. And then, um, after that I was, you know, I was on the road quite a lot, so I didn’t really, really kind of character to the Homebrew very much, you know? So this is a, it’s only been a kind of last year since kinda COVID, uh, I think it’s fantastic.
What’s happened with the changes, but you know what I think. Well, homebrewer calls a vigorous boil is probably more vigorous than what you can get in a commercial setting. Yeah. I see. Know if I, if I’m, you know, I think when I started, I was like, I need a vigorous boil. So I put the burden or up real high and burning too fast for 60 minutes.
Uh, and I think I had like an evaporation of like 15%. And the thing, um, you know, I think what you generally, what you’re looking for is, you know, five, maybe 10%, you know, wouldn’t, wouldn’t go lower than five. So you, you, as one of the things, which just because the, the geometries and the volumes involved with home brewing and that you can eat, you know, you can, you can kinda over ag it a little bit.
What I do now is I, I. I do. I think, I can’t even remember the name of the brewery I worked in where I picked this up, but I do a vigorous kind of 10 minutes, uh, kind of 40 minute kind of simmer stage where as long as it’s moving and then the final kind of 10 minutes is a vigorous again. That’s my strategy, Jean.
Colter Wilson: Awesome. And in doing so you, you mentioned that it kind of. Kick-starts the, the cold break in with, with getting that agitation going and yeah,
Jamie Carmichael: it definitely, you know, we’ve, we’ve got some very good data on the heartbreak for the, for the, you know, for, you know, for the tire building and Senate. Um, and then a lot of what I specialize now in is application of you can have carrageenan based, based fighting agents, which mostly work on, on the cold brake side.
I mean, it’s a, it’s a for nicotine science, it does involve, you know, if you have heartbreak carry over because you’ve had a poor, less vigorous boil, uh, you know, the inclusion of heartbreak will be a detriment to the formation of the cold break.
Colter Wilson: And then it’s, it’s a lot harder and we’re going to assume, I want to assume that people listening to this are brand new home brewers.
And so if you, if you don’t have a good formation of your cold break, what ends up happening is that you still have a lot of proteins in suspension as you rack your beer into your fermentor, right? Yeah.
Jamie Carmichael: So think that the coal break is, you know, it’s quite often, can you classify it as being protein? And is mostly protein.
The protein that way we talk about is kind of similar to kind of gluten, which is kind of a kind of famous, uh, aggregate of kind of protein. It’s more of the storage protein from, from always is hoarding. It’s not digested very well. It isn’t the, um, you know, it’s quite big and it coagulates, but along with the protein, there is a, uh, sugar, which is also, you know, one of these kind of bent new ares of homebrewers, which is going to bake the glucagon.
So that’s tied up in there. So it’s maybe 50% protein, 25% beta glucan. And the kind of 25% is polyphonic. Um,
Colter Wilson: In all things that are going to be a detriment to the clarity of your beer, right?
Jamie Carmichael: Yeah. So what we generally say is, as the strategy is you want to be removing, you know, as much of that partic particular material at every stage of the process. You know, we didn’t talk too much about live touring or, um, you know, kind of mash tongue or separation technology.
You know, we can move past that, you know, so is vigorous boiling. Yeah. I think a lot of brewers are kind of figuring out a system where they either can have, have a Whirlpool or, or some kind of screen to hold back the, any can hop material and, you know, tube or, or heartbreak. Uh, and then onwards, he, most of the time, what you see with, with.
W with kind of commercial brewing, is that the, um, you know, the carrageenan and the capital finding is, are you mostly see them kind of working in the, in the fermentor? It’s obviously a little bit different with homebrewing if you’re using an immersion, uh, cooler because, uh, all the, all the break will sediment higher in that vessel.
Colter Wilson: And then let’s talk about, you know, different types of, uh, you know, things you can do in the fermentation side to help with clarity.
Jamie Carmichael: So obviously I think a lot with home brewing, you know, we’re buying other kind of liquid picks from, from those providers or it’s a dry pitch. Daddy doesn’t flocculate very well. So if you’re, you know, That is, uh, a main, main problem, uh, or can be a big problem with kind of pitching on vulnerable cells.
And, you know, we do see like, uh, sometimes the range, you know, with, with all these breweries is different, different expertise in yeast handling. There, there can be, um, you know, some, a proportion of kind of, kind of debt going in. Uh, I wish it would cause a haze problem. You know, one of the things you have breweries will do is kind of remove the brake.
You know, the, the coal break will SAFT over the, you know, in the course of the first 24 hours, 48 hours during the, you know, during the kind of growth phase of the, of the yeast. So, you know, if you do have a kind of slender cost, cylindroconical kind of home boost that type of as possible to, to remove the cold break from the.
From the fermenter, uh, for the most part, you know, as long as you kind of pitch nice out the yeast, you know, can have 90% viability, 95, 98, uh, you should be fine. And then most of the, you know, the agents that we work with happen at the end. Okay. Uh, one of the reasons I kind of sat, I didn’t do any, um, homebrewing when, when I was going to traveling.
No, that I didn’t want to was because, um, I didn’t have any cooling. Uh, and I was so determined. I wasn’t gonna do any, any homebrewing, unless I could attend Prairie to cruel it, keep it, keep it in cold storage, uh, that didn’t do anything. And then I, I opted to. To buy a couple of chest freezers with thermostats to, you know, to, to run some, some yeast studies.
They, they went phenomenally expensive, uh, because I, you know, during the toilet paper rush, um, but in terms of going to non, non kind of chemical agents, uh, that you can do for, for really bright, clear beer is cold. You know, so you’re, you know, you, I maintain, you know, quite a cool temperature throughout for a meditation.
You know, uh, cold crashes, uh, you know, is, is the kind of terminology that most folk use for that point at the end of, uh, fermentation where, you know, you go up and you put the, uh, you know, you turn the cold on higher, you know, you make it, I generally sat it to, you know, around right freezing where the, you know, water freezing point, uh, And then I leave it, you know, and get as much yeast off and then typically can of transfer it off the sediment to DC.
That’s going to drop tire because of the cold. Um, most other things start to draw power and not transfer it to a new, fresh, clean vessel. Uh, and I’ll continue to store it cold, uh, on as usually at that point of this, any beer findings I’m going to kind of putting in. Allowed them in there, uh, being your finance.
Sorry, go
Colter Wilson: on. Let’s talk about findings now. I think that, you know, there, cause there, there are some hot side findings out there as well, but uh, let’s talk about your cold site findings and uh, and, and kind of what, what those look like. So
there’s,
Jamie Carmichael: there’s two main ones. Uh, and they come with kind of like a ciliary finding agents, you know, which if you aren’t what, you know, what they call like a button Bri or probably polished beer, you know, the one which, you know, we we’ve.
We’ve sort of made since 1860, we bought Savile’s who had made icing glass since 1860, and we still continue to make and sell to the S you know, some of their original customers from, from 18 to 60 icing line icing glass is, you know, uh, you know, what would you call it? Piscean derived finding agent that comes, comes from fish, swim bladders.
Uh, historically I think. The, you know, the fish of choice was sturgeon. It’s a very large fish and the swim bladders are, are pretty big. Um, let’s see. They don’t come from searching anymore. I think it’s too expensive because they come from, you’re not going to species of, uh, Catfish from, from India, which I’ve, the swim bladder is a smaller, we generally, if you’re sourcing swim bladders, uh, you want to look for Asturias and fish because they need the greatest size of swim bladder to cope with the changing density of water, into the mix of fresh and salt water in that region.
So, so that their source on is, uh, produced into a liquid, which is still very popular for the clarification of cost scale. You know, when I started with the company, I obviously heard of it. It’s a finding agent that works very well, but, um, I did ask, uh, how anyone ever thought to use it? What kind of spires is that, you know, swim bladder is, you know, it’s, um, it’s basically a pouch.
You don’t necessarily SAB. Uh, there’s not a lot to it. It’s kind of 98% college, which is the same, same sort of protein that is in the skin. You know, there’s not a lot else to it, you know? So it was essentially used previously as a, you know, a storage vessel for beer, you know, cause there was a little bag.
And I think from that they, they were able to ascertain that it had another property. It does this, you know, the only thing you ask is, uh, uh, college is a very long molecule. You. In the process of making ice and glass from what they call a fish, Mars, you know, you dissolve into a liquid and you tease apart these college and molecules and in a similar way to most find the agents, they work as flop killings.
And the theory goes is that many large molecules or particles will fall faster. Then, uh, you know, many small ones. To do with the fact that they’re just going to reducing the drag, the some other kind of fluid dynamics going on there, which means it works very well, but that’s kind of what happens. So the college in huh, as, uh, an unusual immuno acid called hydroxy proline, which carries with it a slight, uh, positive charge.
Normally carries a slight negative charge to it. So when you add it into a solution, you might have kind of one long college molecule and it will kind of adhere to many yeast cells and they all drop out and they were formed. These kind of flocks. It happens very quickly. If you test it, you put a drop in up, you know, kind of paint, glass size, volume of beer.
I went in a couple of hours. It you’re seeing it settle. Um, and I dropped to the bottom.
Colter Wilson: And so if you were brewing at home, what would, what, what, what, what product would you use for a finding
Jamie Carmichael: that is a very good one. The stuff that we use it, because it’s a Piscean derived. It’s just got limited shelf life. If it works brilliantly. The other one, which I meant to mention was the silica based ones.
Um, so quite often they, we have a kind of more ready to use shelf stable. Um, sorry. Do you use this one as well? So. These are ones is a few different brand names out there they’re generally work in a similar way. So this kind of colloidal Silicon, the solution, it works slightly differently than what the ice in glass does.
The icing glass comes in in this kind of big, long molecule that’s already formed. And as it goes in, it tries to Eastland drops to the bottom and it pulls some other stuff out at the same time. The, you know, the, the silica based ones. No the hour, one is covered super after this, a few others. Um, it’s a colloidal particle.
So that part goes actually by thousandth, the size of a yeast cells are very small. What you’re relying on when you add it, you kick starts a little reaction, uh, due to the change pH and it will start to, to form a gel in the vessel. Very kind of. Like Joe, and it has the same effect. It, it, it works pretty well.
And I think for like a home brew setting, if, if things aren’t moving very much, it will, it’s a pretty good way of doing it. And you can get, you know, I, I read a lot logger. Like I generally use that for Lara and Homebrew setting. The reason, you know, there’s a two of them. Apart from the origin is that the, you know, RMA and, uh, Customers for, for the dicing loss of it or the cost scale breweries in the UK.
If you, you know, if you’ve worked in the cost scale brewery or you’ve truncated, if you’ve seen an effect from the UK, there’ll be top because it basically relies on a brewer pouring into the vessel, into the, this perk and with some icing glass and hammering a Shive and rolling it to the brewery door and putting in a.
The back of the van and the van rolls it down the street and drops into a salary. And, you know, the, the, you know, the landlord of the pop girls, that from the salary to the, the steel agent, it moves around a lot, you know? So the, the civic, uh, based fighting agents don’t stand up to be moved around. You know, they, they drop bright once, maybe twice.
Uh, but after that, they, they start to disintegrate the settlement. The icing glass or findings can actually improve, uh, because this sort of sticky. So you see the opposite effect. Um, So different markets, different beer styles required different types of findings. And then, you know, this exhilarating finding agency you can get as well, which, you know, just how to adjust a few leftover parts feels bad.
That’s, uh, I love it. A level I don’t even go to at home. Sometimes you can get me, usually get with either of those below one EBC, which is the, the Hayes rating for. For beer that we use.
Colter Wilson: And then, so, so, you know, to sum up what we’ve talked about already, obviously process and ingredient selection is really important when it comes to the types of like, if you’re going to make a clear beer, you gotta plan for it. Right. You want to select the right ingredients. And then once you get into the fermentor, Just cold conditioning, uh, and, and getting it cold is going to help you get that the bulk of the, of the material that’s floating around in there, the proteins and the, and the yeast, move it over to another vessel and then still store a cold and then find it at that point.
Right?
Jamie Carmichael: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I w you know, the guy that taught me to make beer, you know, everything, everything has sat for two weeks. Uh, at minus two centigrade, which is well, 30, 35 in height, uh, on it, it was a big deal to, to have it released or earlier than that. Um, and, but, you know, I can sway a little bit, no, especially with some of the hot PRLs.
But they tend not to be the, um, the bright ones. Usually if I’m making a bright beer, um, I’m worried it’s going to come up my garden path and tell me off potentially, but I do it for less than two weeks. The other thing we should, I don’t know if you you’re going to come to this. I think, yeah. For, for brewing and apheresis DNR can a couple of times with, on, on, on the rabbit forum, which, you know, kinda led me here, um, it’s with the dose rate, uh, the, the dose rate of these products with, you know, your, your cow finding, if you’re using a, like a whirl flop quiches, you know, the other guy’s walk, or if you use our one, which is called pota to flock, Yeah, similar kind of thing.
Or if you’re using eyes and glass or you’re using the Silicon one, um, I think the most common era that most home brewers are likely to make is with an over application of the dose rate, uh, because the actual dose rate is so, so low. Um, so the carrageenan which you’re putting in. Uh, the, you know, the last few minutes of the boil, there, there was some discussion whether it was, you know, 10 minutes or 15 minutes that doesn’t really make a difference.
Um, but it’s not a tablet for a five gallon, uh, batch. Uh, I can, I can tell you for a four hour one, and I’m fairly sure for, for, for the other guys, you know, If they want to disagree with me. Yeah. I’ll recall it. But know, I think that tablet is probably was designed for 100 liters, which is what we call a hectoliter or it was designed for a us Marine barrel, which is 117 liters.
Okay. So when I brew, I put in. Like one fifth of one of those tablets. And I literally, I’m taking like one tablet out of a box that has 10,000 in it, you know? Cause that’s fine. That’s, you know, that’s a box I opened for, you know, for samples and I’m a Scotsman, so I’m thrifty. So I save that four fifths of a tablet in a bag and save it for next day.
And cause I don’t, I don’t want to take any of that 9,999. Yeah, when you flop kill, they are, if it’s the protein in the, the fermenter or cattle with the carrageenan, or whether it’s you’re fermenting the, the yeast and the, uh, in the financial at the end of fermentation, the process is kind of the same.
You’re using these kind of polymers, you know, the, these long, long molecules with charges on them. Light charges were pal. The only way for them not to repel is to continue to utilize and see the dose rate that you add needs to be in a lie. And with the amount of stuff that you were moving. So if you go too far beyond, you’ve got this access of these, these big, long molecules, which, uh, don’t, don’t want to, to nest with one another, because they’ve got all these opposing charges and you’ve got this, like this bulky sediment, um, So the, they tend to be know the, the bulky sediment will increase quite a lot with, uh, you know, really superficial.
Can they change a kind of own brew level? Yeah. With the, you know, with the tablets. It’s like, I think, I think I aspire half a gram on the 10th. You know, the tablets are by like two. 2.4, 2.5 grams each, you know, so it’s a quarter a fifth about that. I’d say with home brewing, you’re better going a little bit under.
Uh, an optimized application, right? Most of the time, while I do with, you know, with my job is I, I visit breweries and I will do these trials, these assay’s, and I’m gauging whether they should be putting in two grams per 100 liters or three grams per a hundred liters or four grams per a hundred liters.
And occasionally you’ll do somebody to the side and it’s not much difference than. I’ve made mistakes, you know, or, or, or I’ve gauged it wrong by like a gram and a hundred liters on, you know, berries will lose like hundreds of thousands of gallons. So you’d be home brewing, you know, the same rules apply that, you know, just, just be vigilant, you know, don’t ever.
Think that, you know, if, if one tablet does it, you know, didn’t quite do it, you know, last time. So the next time you’re going to put into it may be the opposite way round. It may be that you put half or a quarter next time, rather than one.
Colter Wilson: And then do what, what type, uh, just quick question for you. Do you sell any type of findings that are for the Homebrew level?
Jamie Carmichael: No. Yeah, no, it’s, it’s, it’s on the, it’s on the, on the trajectory. Uh, we mostly supply to, you know, to, to commercial breweries, you know, from, from some of the big guys down to down to the Brut pubs.
It’s a wonderful market. You know, I I’m really wanting to, to, to access it. Uh, you know, we work with BSG. They do have, you know, they’ve got a home brew wearing their, you know, their, their hops, different dots. They, they, they, they package the hops, um, the developed plum and, you know, , you know, kind of rubbed him.
Uh, so yeah, what should the space, I mean, th the other, uh, I think the, the one I get most interest from which we can maybe chat about next time is with, with an enzyme, not so much a finding agent is an enzyme called ALDC, which, you know, this is phenomenon called dry hop creep. Uh, you know, kinda learn a lot about it.
So yeah, there’s, there’s some, some interest there and it’s just, it’s working with, uh, you know, kind of partners who Excel in any kind of packaging down to, down to that size.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. And, and, and just, just, uh, for listeners, you know, I am going to link to like some silica findings that are for a Homebrew scale in the show notes.
Just so that like, Hey, if, if, if you want to test out some of these types of findings, um, you can check them out. Um, I, I, I don’t know, is ice in glass, even something you can buy for home bruise level. I I’ve never seen it. So.
Jamie Carmichael: I’ve seen it. Um, I think, you know, it wasn’t our stuff and other names of the guys that make it, um, it, it was packaged for, I think it was packaged for wine.
Uh, it would work, work in beer. It doesn’t work so well in cider, the pH drops too low. Um, but it’s available, you know, I can, you know, put my email up on the website right now. Anyone wouldn’t say, you know, how many listeners you’ve got? Um, yeah. W w I can, I can, I can help you source it. Uh, ha happy to supply.
I’ll answer any questions, you know, although we don’t. Um, although we don’t manage to get much out to, to the Homebrew market, you know, You guys are my flock. I just want to see good beer being made. All these products will work to a certain extent until, you know, if they’re applied correctly. Um, so yeah.
Yeah. Give me a call, give me a shower. I can, you know, try and help you out, you know, I just want to, yeah. Yeah.
Colter Wilson: Well, and, and Homebrew clubs obviously can buy. You know, larger packages of, of findings as well. And, uh, split them amongst the club. We personally at my home brew club do a similar thing where we, you know, we we’ll buy like full liter bottles of certain findings and split them up and, and we’ll.
You know, like we’ll buy a bunch of BioFire and we’ll split it up. Right. So, uh, that’s definitely something that, uh, we, we do as a club. And so also, yeah. Uh, I’ll definitely get your contact information and we’ll put that in the show notes. So if anybody has any questions about any of these types of products, uh, you know, ask a fining expert, uh, he, he can tell you about it.
Uh, you guys do other stuff too. The not just findings you guys have. Uh, you know,
Jamie Carmichael: yeah. I mean with, uh, you know, there’s 2000 odd berries in the UK and, you know, 7,000 in the USA, 40 different countries around the world. And we were the company from. Yeah. How did yours go? 70 years ago? 50 years ago, if you were an oddball brewery that had a way of doing things and you needed a, like a speciality chemical planted to your way, we made it for you.
And you know, we’ve continued to make it for, for 80 years. So there’s this bespoke formulations. And Shina clay. You know, if you go to new Glarus brewing in Wisconsin, you can see China clay painted on the side of his open fermenters. I know Chino was talking about that last time, you know, that’s, that’s how we’re trying to clay.
Uh, you know, if you are, uh, uh, Yorkshire square brewer and your, your yeast is having a problem, uh, you know, Fluctuating to the top, so you can skim it for the next batch. We make a product called that you will throw in on that will cause the yeast to, uh, fluctuate to the top. And you can skim it to put in the bare, um, uh, cork mats, which the, the Draymond like to use in the UK to drop the barrels on too, because you know, you know, bags filled with corks that, you know, you would normally see in a wine bottle.
Give them the correct amount of bonus that they like for dropping costs on to. We make those, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s a curious place, long, long back catalog. You know, a lot of the stuff isn’t in our, in our economy, in our brochure, but you know, we continue to make it for for a hundred years.
Colter Wilson: That’s just awesome.
And. Hey, it’s been a, it’s been a long pandemic. What have you made? What, what kind of beers have you made and what did you enjoy these days? So we w
Jamie Carmichael: we work with a little bit, uh, they released some new use to, so I ordered did I try out, uh, Bought about two freezers. I tried R uh, I think I, uh, I did a 34 70 versus the law and diamond lager yeast.
I w uh, you use the treat. Uh, I tried the Philly sour. I’m not, not too big, a sour fan. Uh, I don’t know how many of the listeners are familiar with, you know, you want to experiment, but, you know, you end up with five gallons of something and it’s going to go somewhere a really good oatmeal stout. Uh, I lived for awhile in New Zealand.
I spent a lot of time trying to like replicate a New Zealand lager, um, called Emerson, the side I tried over there, uh, you know, using some of these kind of New Zealand hops. It was pre me know from trying to remember a beer from from eight years ago. A lot of time doing that. I think what Hyde lined up was I think like a red ale for roundabout here.
Um, but yeah, just yeah, finding the time and, uh, you know, the ability to, to get through it.
Colter Wilson: Hey, Hey, it’s uh, that is, uh, uh, you know, having too much beers, a good problem to have, but that’s, you know, that’s why you can, you could always make one gallon batches, the whole show on it. And
Jamie Carmichael: especially, I think, I think that this came up in the random forum.
If you, if you’re doing a one gallon batch, uh, you know, it’s like 0.05 grounds of a fighting agent. Uh, and I’d made, I’d made the exact same mistake that this guy had. Cause I work, I worked in a brewery and we were doing, um, like R and D you know, you can’t see me, but I’m putting like, you know, the kind of coma up in the air signal, uh, which was me bringing in my, like, Electric tier in which you can, you know, you could, electric boiling is more popular in the UK because we’ve got 240 volts.
And, you know, I drew off some work to bio with some different hops and went over to the, this package of, of, uh, fighting things and took her, you know, what I thought was the correct amount. It was like up. Like a handful and threw it in and cooled it dire. And then I made a jelly. Um, yeah. So maybe they have here, uh, doing like a one gallon batch.
I don’t know if you mentioned this in the end of the presentation. Yeah. Be, be very careful. Don’t don’t hide the same, a migrant thinking it’s, uh, going to give the same effect. Yeah. You want to go go real low?
Colter Wilson: Yeah, you gotta, you gotta scale up. It’s it’s like,
Jamie Carmichael: I know you live in Canada, so they, you know, they, you know, same as me here in Massachusetts now that you can buy like an accurate, like scale that would go to 0.0, one of the ground or the gas station, you know, this is there’s benefits that they’re easy to come by.
So
Colter Wilson: yeah, you know, those legal States, they, they just have a scales all over it, but it’s funny as a, I actually. I have a scale that goes to like, I think. You know, for zeros, I have a really, really fine one that I bought from China for $10 off Ali express. And I bought it specifically to do my brewing salts.
Right. I, I, I only needed a hundredth of a gram, but I ended up at, you know, like, You know, 10000th of a gram, but, uh, it, it works great. And you know, it was $10 on, on a Chinese website and, and that’s also another, you know, if you need to get that small, you’re doing a one gallon batch and you need to weigh out your findings specifically to a one gallon batch or even hops.
Right. For a one gallon batch, um, can get into Le way less than a gram. And so you have to, you have to, you have to kind of think that way and those one gallon, batches, it’s kind of crazy. Yeah. I,
Jamie Carmichael: I kind of rebounded, I talked to, I don’t want to get too far off topic, but I was, I spent a while trying to, trying to brew almost by like, uh, you know, sense of smell or something like that.
Barely using anything. When it, you know, when I first moved over, I was broke. Uh, didn’t have much equipment. Are you changed now? No, you know, really start to tighten up. Yeah, I could probably talk for a lot longer, but yeah, I got go, go thing is a pH meter and, you know, good, good kind of, uh, you know, Sacharai mutter and you can take the belt work bank and I can put my laptop and I use Bruce Smith and, you know, remembering when, you know, because I, I, I learned all the calculations at school.
I used to do everything, you know, quite literally back of the envelope and then, you know, lose the envelope. Um, Yeah, and I’m a diploma brewers and it was kind of, uh, hardly sat and he’s on. But, but yeah, yeah, I really kind of tightened up putting, you know, got scales and the cracked measuring equipment and it has really shown kind of quite pleased with the results now.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. I think that, you know, when we think about making great, the difference between good beer and great consistent beer is all processed. Right? And so I think that that’s, and, and you know, to me, it’s like the batches where I don’t take pH readings and I, I cut shortcuts. Don’t get me wrong. They generally turn out and they’re fine, but it’s something where if you really put.
All of the work into it and you, and you don’t cut corners and you make sure all your numbers are right. And every you, you, you, you really focus on process. Those are the beers that end up being my best beers. Right. And maybe. It’s because I put in all that process and it’s just my brain thinking it’s the best beer, but on the other hand, those also end up usually being my competition beers.
And those are the beers that ended up, you know, winning metals. So it’s, to me, that’s the process, right? It’s all processed.
Jamie Carmichael: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve, I’ve never entered a, uh, brewing competition. Um, is, uh, I kinda realized, I, you know, I got a degree in brewing, so if, if I win, people are gonna think I’m a yeah. I’m a dad.
If I lose this guy, this guy’s got ruined degree. You can go in. He’s a Dick, you know,
Colter Wilson: you can always
Jamie Carmichael: judge. I’ve done a few of those. Um, I’ve I’ve I’ve I have judged competitions and then, uh, I get pulled up, you know, By my wife about it. She, she, you know, we’re, you know, you’d be out, you know, friends, neighbors, brunch, or something like that. She talked to him, he, he, he, he went to Mexico city and jokes to beer competition.
That’s his work. And I’m like, it is work it’s after, after heavy, they’re kind of like judging, like it’s, it’s really, it’s a slog. And every, everyone in the room is laughing. We’re going to hit it’s work. And I bang
Colter Wilson: crowd that understands that it is worth it. Come on.
Jamie Carmichael: Okay. There you go. Yeah.
Colter Wilson: We all need to go
Jamie Carmichael: to brunch at your house.
Colter Wilson: It is work. I mean, imagine having, like, let’s say you go and you’re judging a brewing competition with five or 600 different beers in it, and you’ve got to do, you know, five or six different categories in it.
And. You’ve got to taste all the beers in those categories and you got to try to make it so that your mouth isn’t burnt out and you want to give good feedback on every single beer. It’s a lot.
Jamie Carmichael: It’s a good, good feedback. Yeah, because I mean, the ones I’ve done, I’ve not done too many, but it turns to me in like, like Latin America and they, they, they, they just want to learn and grow.
They don’t mind that, you know, they’re not, not winning. Uh, but they, one of the feedback and yeah, after 500 beers, trying to figure out a new way to describe beer foam. Yeah. You know, I care about you just as much as the number one, I’m trying, I’m trying to do it, but, and I don’t want to just resign, but I’ve got, I’ve got like, you know, limited capacity to describe it.
Yeah. They’re from, um, but yeah. Enjoy, you know what I want to give everyone my best.
Colter Wilson: Awesome. Well, Jamie, I want to thank you for taking the time to be on homebrewing, DIY. I, this was a very fun conversation. I know that it’s like, Hey, we’re going to talk about findings, but in the end, uh, you’re you’re, you’re great.
Storyteller, and I love hearing about your brewing experience and then what you’re doing. And, uh, I thought it was a wonderful conversation. I will put, uh, Jamie’s contact information for work in, uh, over at Murphy and son into the show notes so that if anybody has any questions, please reach out to him.
I’m sure he would love to let you know and, uh, help in any way to, you know, we, it’s all about making great beer and, uh,
Jamie Carmichael: Yeah, thank you for having me again sometime.
Colter Wilson: Oh, absolutely. Uh, I I’ve, I’m already thinking of all the shows I’m going to have you on
I’d like to think Jamie for coming on this week’s show. It was a great conversation and really just fun to talk to him about, you know, making clear beer. Yeah, it was, it was a wonderful conversation. So thank you, Jamie. Definitely have you back. You can find us on any of the socials out there. All one word at home brewing DIY we’re on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, give us follow.
I’d love to hear from you and send us feedback. I didn’t have any this week, so we’ll do it next week. Well, that’s it for this week. On homebrewing, DIY .
