Today we talk with Garrett Allen Pro Brewer and maker of the Progress Your Beer Podcast. We talk all things beer carbonation and making sure you beers have the right levels of it.
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Show Transcript AI Created it Will Have Errors
Colter Wilson: On this week’s episode, we’re talking to Garrett Allen, he’s the host of the progressor beer podcast. And he wanted to show up on homebrewing DIY and talk about all things carbonation. So step into our conversation where we talk about carbonating, your beer. This week on homebrewing, DIY
Welcome back to homebrewing DIY the podcast that takes on the do yourself, aspect of homebrewing, gadgets, contraptions, and parts. The show covers it all. On this week’s show, we’re talking to Garrett Allen, he’s the host of the progressor beer podcast. And he reached out to me and wanted to have a conversation about carbonating beer.
He actually listened to the episode where we talked about packaging beer, and I had a little part where I said, Hey, You know, I don’t really know the carbonation math. And he reached out to me and was like, Hey, let’s talk about it. So we’re going to have quite the conversation today about carbonating your beer.
I’m actually pretty excited about it. But first I’d like to thank all of our patrons over a Patrion it’s because of you that the show can come to you week after week, head on over to patrion.com forward slash homebrewing DIY. And there you can give at any amount, I will say. I want to thank all of our patrons.
It’s I know that. I always say that that the show can come to you week after week, but in all reality, it is true. I have to say, I don’t make money at this show. It’s not something where I am in it to make money. I know we have some ads. I know we have some of those things built into the show, but all reality, all that does is cover things like my web hosting covers things like my editing software and, and just really all of the costs that come.
With producing a show. People think that, yes, you can just go get a free podcast app. You can, but if you want to do a higher quality show, you got to make some investments. So I make those investments a hundred percent with your Patrion money. So thank you so much. Also another way to support the show is head on over to coffee.com.
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I actually really liked the new color scheme, but there you can click on our sponsor banners and doing so also supports the show. I want to thank whoever went over to adventures in homebrewing last week and bought some home brewing equipment and used our sponsor banner. Uh, you know, I do see that and I want to thank whoever did I don’t I don’t see actually who the person is that does it.
I just see that it happened. So thank you so much for doing so. The last one, another way to support shows, obviously write us a review head on over to Pacis or.com, or you could go to Apple podcasts and there you can write us a review. Well, we’ll get into feedback and all of that at the end of the interview.
So let’s just dive into it. We’re going to talk to Garrett Allen, and we’re going to talk about carbonation.
I’d like to welcome Garrett Allen to the show. Garrett Allen is a brewer over at Skoll brewing down in Durango, Colorado with very, very good brewery here in Colorado. And Garrett actually reached out to me after my bottles, kegs and cans episode, where. I in that episode, talked a bit about carbonation and carbonation tables and understanding atmospheres of carbonation.
And I kind of, in that episode said, Hey, that’s a little bit gap in my knowledge, when it comes to math there, and he reached out to me and said, Hey, I’d love to talk about it on the show. And considering you’re a professional brewer or at some level, I’m going to assume you generally know this stuff. So welcome to the show, Garrett, how are you?
I’m
Garrett Allen: great. Thanks for having me on.
Colter Wilson: Awesome. So we’re going to talk about carbonation today and, you know, talking about figuring out atmospheres, uh, it also gets into, uh, a couple of other places where we’re talking about like, you know, carving, maybe carbonating pressures in a keg versus serving pressures.
And also when we talk about figuring out. Priming sugar when you’re bottling. So carbonation has a lot to do with packaging of beer and there are some kind of, there’s some simple math you can do to figure that out. But, uh, first let’s just get a bit of background on your home brewing. And then how did you become a professional brewer?
Garrett Allen: So I started home brewing, um, back in college, I actually, um, went to, uh, Colorado school of mines and I, uh, I took a brewing class my senior year, just kind of as a, it started off as a Jeep. GPA booster, um, one of those things, but I, I just fell in love with it. Um, learning the, you know, the entire process from malting, um, to the enzymes at work and everything.
I just fell in love with it and was like, this is what I want to do. So, um, So after I graduated, um, I got a soulless pencil pusher job and really disliked it and reached out to Scott Bruin cause they were local to me. And, um, It, it took a little bit because I was pretty overqualified, but they finally let me take on a packaging job where I was a, a keg washer and filler and all that stuff.
So that’s pretty much where you have to start, uh, if you’re brand new to the industry and, uh, worked my way up and, and showed me, showed my work ethic and. Uh, knowledge and interest. And, uh, here I am as a brewer.
Colter Wilson: That’s. That’s awesome. And, and you did do home brewing for a while, probably before you became a procurer or you were home brewing, right?
Garrett Allen: Yeah. For like a year and a half or so. Um, cause after I graduated, I had that job, um, you know, uh, it was with an environmental firm, but, um, Yeah. During that year, year and a half or so between, um, graduating and doing that job, uh, I was homebrewing throughout before I was like, uh, pursuing an actual career in this industry is really interesting.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. And so obviously, When you’re on a canning line. And, uh, and, and when you Homebrew, you have to package your beer at some level. Right? So right now, when we talk about it, the Homebrew scale, most home brewers, when they start out, they start out with bottles and they usually are going to add the amount of priming sugar that whatever their kit tells them to.
Right. Yeah. What actual math goes in to figuring out the amount to go in for the pressures of a CO2.
Garrett Allen: It’s not, it’s super complicated. Um, you can go into the stork geometry of it, and, um, you take a lot of assumptions. Uh, what exactly. Um, the, the yeast is going to take that sugar and just assume it’s going to convert that all into, um, a certain amount of ethanol and a certain amount of CO2.
And, um, with that you can take, so I’ll back up a little bit. Um, carbonation is all about. Uh, it’s measured in volumes. Um, but that can also be converted into grams per liter and, uh, grams of CO2 per leader of, uh, of beer. And so when you’re doing that actual math, math on your own, um, you’re converting those grams of sugar to a certain amount of grams per uh, Grams to CO2.
And so, um, And, and then you can just do the conversion from there. So do you want a certain amount of volumes? You convert that to grams per liter, and then you go backwards in the, uh, in the chemical equation to, to figure out how much sugar you need to put in.
Colter Wilson: Okay. So for example, uh, let’s say I wanted to get two volumes of two atmospheres of volumes in a five gallon batch of beer.
Right. You basically are going to convert those volumes to grams per liter and then work the sugar back that way. Is that it? Yeah,
Garrett Allen: you can do that. Um, I typically don’t do it that way because there’s a lot of brewing calculators out there. Um, obviously if you wanted to do it by hand yeah. That that would be the way to do
Colter Wilson: it.
Okay. And then when it comes to the, the, the difference in the lower. Kind of, uh, uh, when it comes to like lower volumes of all of atmospheres and a beer. Right? So for example, let’s say I needed something that’s closer to maybe 1.8 or two atmosphere, atmospheric volumes of CO2 versus something that’s more like three or 3.5.
What, what kind of things do those diff what does the difference in those atmospheres do to the actual beer itself? Flavor wise? So,
Garrett Allen: this is a wonderful question. Um, carbonation though, those, when that carbonation escapes from being dissolved in, in solution of your beer and coming out, um, it, it really it’s a.
Carrier for your, a lot of your, uh, aroma compounds. And so if, if you have something like an IPA, um, it, it does affect mouthfeel as well. So you really want to strike a balance between that, uh, that aroma you’re the increase in aroma. You’re going to get with the, with a higher carb CO2, but it’s also going to, you know, Obviously become a more, uh, a much livelier beer, um, and depending on the beer, um, it can certainly come across as if you have like a, I hate to use the word thin or beer, but, um, If you have a thinner, like, like a seltzer or something, uh, it can create a fuller mouthfeel, but then at the same time, it can also help cut through a thicker beer.
You know, if, if you were to, um, carbonate a little higher, it wouldn’t feel quite as Fiscus or thick. Um, So, so,
Colter Wilson: yeah, so like, for example, if I have a seltzer essentially has zero Melville, cause it’s essentially alcohol and water. Right. If we get it down to it’s like it’s total like pure components. Right.
And so to add a little bit of body to it, Th they have a very high carbonation, probably closer to like four or five atmospheres. Right. Is that right?
Garrett Allen: It depends. Um, the ones I’ve seen at least on a, on a canning level, at least where I work, we shoot for around three to 3.5 volumes.
Colter Wilson: Okay. Still that’s pretty high.
Right? Very similar to, closer to like a, that’s pretty close to like a champagne or like a, uh, very well bottle condition stays on would be a good example.
Garrett Allen: Yeah, I’ll say Sohn. I think champagnes can get up to eight or nine volumes.
Colter Wilson: Wow. That’s a lot. So, yeah. So you guys are doing around three and a half to four volumes when you’re doing seltzers on your line, right?
Garrett Allen: Yeah. Basically, uh, as high as we can
Colter Wilson: get. Yeah. Okay. And then. And th the other part you were talking about is if you have a fuller body beer, so like an Imperial stout level of beer or something like that kind of syrupy, or is that what you’re, you’re kind of implying. Yeah.
Garrett Allen: Um, it, it can help if there is a beer that you feel might be a little too viscous.
Um, adding a little carbonation can help liven it up.
Colter Wilson: Okay. And when it comes to the different styles of beer. So for example, let’s look and we’ll, we’ll go from, uh, let’s, let’s start with like, A British style, like mild, right? They, they tend to be the, the kind of the cask conditioned beers that tend to be driven by oxygen.
I mean, sorry, nitrogen and those beers are usually conditioned in the cask when it comes to actually getting the carbonation level that they do have, but they have a very low carbonation level because there are low alcohol beer to give them more mouth feels that correct.
Garrett Allen: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s kind of why I was, uh, it was a little tricky talking about it because you, you can add a lot of carbonation to add some body, but, but then at the same time, I’m adding, you know, Session Cascabel is going to have a fuller mouth field because it’s less carbonated.
It it’s actually pretty interesting.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. It, it, it really is. Uh, one of the things I don’t think people really understand is how much of the effect carbonation has on the overall experience that you have in beer. Uh, I think that that is what specifically, when it comes to perception. Right. Uh, and I, to me, I, I love to use the like really light, uh, English beers is a great example because we’re talking beers like 3% alcohol, 4%, four and a half tops.
Right. And if they were to have a lot of. Carbonation, they would taste kind of wart watery in a way with it and
Garrett Allen: yeah. Yeah. They would come off as, as thin. Yeah.
Colter Wilson: Yes. And then, and then when you, when you have that lower carbonation, they kind of ha it, it allows what body is there in the residual sugars that are there to really come through and gives it a more of a mouth feel and then, you know, throw some nitrogen on there and you get that nice thick head.
That sticks around. Right. And so it’s, it becomes its own experience there that, uh, is very, very indicative to the style. Whereas, you know, an IPA because you have a lot of hops, what, what are you looking for for carbonation there? Because you want to really accentuate maybe the hopper Roma and, uh, and obviously you want to accentuate a certain type of mouth field just based on the style of beer, right.
Garrett Allen: Yeah, exactly. Um, for me, I found my IPA’s, uh, the sweet spots between 2.5 and 2.7 volumes of CO2 that that’s where I really get that nice expressive aroma and where it’s just kind of punching you in the face, but, but then you also, um, yeah, it, it, it. At that volume of CO2, I find that the body of the beer and, and the, and the aroma just, you know, that that’s, that’s just the sweet spot for it.
Um, it all kind of comes
Colter Wilson: together. Yeah. And then if you were to look at the different styles of packaging and you’re thinking, you know, w we talked a bit about priming sugar, um, Let’s talk about, like, how do you do carbonation at a brewery and how does that differ from carbonation at like a, at a Homebrew scale?
Garrett Allen: Uh, it it’s extremely different. Um, we, so when a beer is finished, um, we’re going to go through a centrifuge at least microbrewery because we’re larger and, uh, AF uh, postcentral. Centrifuging the beer, uh, there, the piping actually goes from, you know, like a typical, uh, the circle cross section, and it goes down into a flat slab where, um, there’s, uh, carbonation stone and it’s called a pinpoint carbonator.
So as the beers going from the fermenter, uh, through the centrifuge to the, to what’s. Called a bright tank, which is what we package off of. That’s where we put, um, nice, bright, clean beer, carbonated beer into, and, um, we try and hit our carbonation, uh, going to the bright tank, uh, through that pinpoint carbonator.
Colter Wilson: Okay. So, uh, the centrifuge essentially is your spinning the beer around really quickly. And it’s going to get all the proteins it’s essentially like filtering your beer without having to push it through, right? Yeah, exactly. Okay. And then you’re going to run it through and I love this. You guys like basically track to get as much surface area as possible onto that stone so that it actually takes less, uh, volumes of CO2 to actually carbonate the beer.
Right.
Garrett Allen: Exactly. So it, it can actually be carbonated in line.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. So like, as it’s passing over the stone, when it comes out the other side, it’s carbonated because you’re putting a lot of CO2 on just a small amount of beer. And so it’s just like hyper infusing it and all of this process is happening really cold so that, uh, it’s going to take up all of that carbonation very easily.
Correct.
Garrett Allen: Right. Yeah, the colder, the beer, uh, the better it’s going to uptake the better and faster it’s going to uptake that
Colter Wilson: carbonation. And then once you get it into the bright tank, you have this carbonated beer, and then that’s where your packaging either bottles, cans. I know you guys do lots of cans and kegging straight from that.
And this is a process that takes about how long from let’s just say we’re going from the fermentor. To the centrifuge to through the w w how long does that process take to actually get to a package,
Garrett Allen: uh, to a package? Uh, it depends. So we. We have 39, 80 and, um, 240 barrel fermenters, uh, because we’re brewing in 30 barrel increments.
So, um, we take, uh, the mash tun and turn that over three times to fill a 90 barrel fermenter. And so, uh, our centrifuge runs typically at, uh, 60 barrels an hour, so we can, uh, Uh, a 90 barrel tank. We can centrifuge filter that in about an hour and a half. And then sometimes we package the same day if we’re in a rush.
Um, but typically the next day, just so that we. Can make sure that our CA our carbonation is perfectly InSpec and letting the beer kind of settle and come into its own before final
Colter Wilson: packaging. Yeah. So basically you could take an entire, uh, 90 barrel. Fermenter run it through the machine and in a couple of hours, let it, let’s say you do that at the end of the day.
You go home for the night. You come back the next morning and you’re going to package it. Does that seem like the process for you?
Garrett Allen: That’s pretty much our typical workflow, unless something interesting happens. Yeah,
Colter Wilson: which it’s, uh, when you’re doing that scale, there’s always something interesting. Right? Oh, and then when we talk about the Homebrew scale, though, let’s go through the process of like, let’s say, uh, you know, w we talk about bottling with, with carbonating sugar, but let’s talk about like, kegging, right.
And obviously I don’t have a centrifuge. I don’t have a filter. Right. Uh, for most, most homebrewers, we’re going to do fining and that kind of stuff to get the clarity, but. Let’s talk about, like, what is this, the standard methods for taking Homebrew into a five gallon keg and getting it carved up to a level that let’s say we’re shooting for that 2.5 to 2.7 atmospheres.
What would that typically look like? And let’s start with like speed carving all the way down to like a standard, like slow carb.
Garrett Allen: Cool. For sure. Um, so. You get your beer cold, first of all, um, whether that’s in your fermentor or, um, in the, in the cake itself. Um, I like that if, if you can’t, uh, get your, uh, beer and your fermentor cold without, uh, introducing oxygen and stuff like that, I mean, you can totally, um,
Get that into your keg, leaving as much true as you can behind, uh, pressurize and, uh, and get it cold. But, um, once your beer is cold, um, that 2.5 to 2.7 range. Um, if you’re doing this slow, uh, just set it and forget it. Um, You can look at the equilibrium chart. Um, it’s pretty simple. You can Google, um, CO2 equilibrium chart beer or something like that.
And there’ll be a, a chart that has pressure and temperature, um, across it. And so you measure your temperature, um, And then whatever PSI or at your temperature, um, you look at in that column, what volume you want, and then, um, you can find what pressure you need to set it up. Um, it’s pretty simple. Uh, typically for a, uh, let’s say, 40 degrees Fahrenheit for 2.5 volumes.
You probably want it around. 11 to 12 PSI. And then for quick carving, um, it’s. Pretty it’s pretty simple as well. Um, I, I have never had good luck with it. I always over carve it. Um, but, um, what you can do is the 30 PSI, uh, seems good and, and shaking it. And what you’re doing when you do shake it is you’re creating all those little.
Bubbles and, and, and you’re increasing surface area, just like in a professional setting. When, when you’re increasing that surface area to that pinpoint, carbonator when you’re shaking, you, you’re letting the CO2 get into the beer. Uh, in as many ways as possible. Um, and so you can do that for a few hours and just kind of keep testing it and, um,
Colter Wilson: yeah.
Yeah. And when you’re at 30 PSI and you’re shaking it, you can do it. And I would say like probably half a day, you’re, you’re probably pretty close right. With the shaking method. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. My, my personal method is I actually, I, my, my, my keys are set to 37. Right. So, uh, between the, and it’s got a little bit of a range, so my beer ends up being around it.
It’s cl it’s about 39. If I were to actually take an internal temperature, when I, when I first get it in there. And I will tell you that my, my personal method is 40 PSI, not shaking for solid 24 hours. And I come out and my beer is just under that 2.5 P uh, that, that 2.5 to 2.7, uh, atmospheres. And then what I do after that is.
I’ll then crank it down to my serving pressure and I’ll leave it another day. Cause I, I’m not really in a big rush. So a couple of days isn’t a big deal for me. And so, and I’ll, and I’ll take it down to my serving pressure. And then within 24 hours, I’m like right there that, and that’s my, my method. Um, and when I’m just a little low, totally just have a beer off of it.
Cause you know, it doesn’t taste bad. It’s not quite there, but it’s close enough. That appears good. But, uh, yeah, but, but the shake method does get me there faster. And I agree with you when I shake it at 30 PSI. Cause I have done it in the past. I tend to over carbonate it because I’ve, you know, I, I feel like maybe I’m not doing it in a short enough amount of time and I haven’t, and I haven’t done it enough times to get the timing down.
Right. But I have, I have the same problem when I try to. Burst carpet that fast. And I’m doing the shake method at 30 PSI with cold beer. And I keep shaking it every couple hours. I do end up actually over carving it and then you’ve got to wait. So let’s talk about that now, uh, the over carbonation, which I think if you have a kegging system, at some point, you’re going to over carbonate your beer, just because you’re, if you’re like me, you’re gonna get impatient.
So what, what would you say you do if you over carbonate your beer? Don’t freak out, obviously it’s not a big deal, but what, what does that process look like to get it back in line to what the carbonation should be?
Garrett Allen: Yeah, that’s going to be kind of time intensive. Um, I would personally, uh, wait, um, at my, uh, Equilibrium temperature and pressure.
But if you do find yourself in a such a situation, um, you want to, um, release, uh, uh, basically all of your pressure, maybe not all of it. Um, but, um, it it’s essentially the reverse of carbonating it, um, if you want to do you carve it, uh, Faster, um, you release most of your pressure and then shake it and let that carbonation come the opposite directions of going into the beer.
It’s going out into, um, the it’s airspace and just keep doing that until, um, You know, it, it just slowly releases less and less pressure. And, um, then you can dial in your carbonation from there. It’s just all about doing that kind of shaking and getting carbonation out and testing where that
Colter Wilson: yeah. Uh, and, and just like the shake method to get it in.
You take the, you take the pressure off, shake it, just like you take a Coke, right. And you shake it. And when you release it, if you shake it and then immediate release that you’re going to spray some stuff out the top, you want to let it settle a little bit and then release the pressure. Right. And, uh, it, and, and other thing is, is that also like a Coke, if you were to heat up the beer a little bit, It’s also going to take less back in.
And so, uh, that, that’s also another method is if you take it out of the kegerator, let it get warm. I don’t personally think subscribe to this just because I think that temperature swings on beer are probably just not good for beer flavor overall or, or packaging stability, but it is a way that if you’re in a, in a bind, uh, you know, if it, if it got warmer, it also is going to be less likely to accept CO2.
Garrett Allen: Right? Right. That that’s correct. And I agree with you, um, that is certainly a method you can utilize, but I, again, I, I wouldn’t personally do
Colter Wilson: it, so let’s talk a bit about that, but let’s do talk about the relationship of temperature and, uh, and its acceptance of CO2. Um, so, you know, w. What do you think the better way to ask the question would probably be, what do you think is the optimum temperature to store your beer at, for it to get the right amount of CO2?
And this could be a personal preference for you, but w w what is that optimal temperature?
Garrett Allen: Um, for actually getting carbonation in? Um, I like that thirties six to. 40 basically you’re, um, you’re serving, um, because, uh, as your keg sits there and you’re, uh, pouring beers, uh, if your serving pressure is going to be that equilibrium pressure where it, it maintains a consistent volume of CO2, um, that’s where I, I want my.
Um, temperature to be, and that’s all dependent on, um, your line length and just kind of how you’ve, um, built your system to be serving.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. Let’s talk a bit about line weights, because I think that that’s something that, uh, you know, why it’s called line balancing, right? You want to be able to have a certain serving pressure where you’re serving pressure essentially.
Is the same pressure as the volume of carbonation that you want. And you want to balance your lines in a way so that it comes out in a, in a proper speed to where it doesn’t just like. Exploding the glass and, and fizz everywhere. And then there’s no point because you’ve now just taken all your carbonation out, but also, so that it isn’t a drizzle that comes out.
Right. So w what does it look like when you’re trying to balance lines specifically in 11, say a Keizer or a picnic tap setting? Cause that’s going to be more. In line with what a homebrewer is doing versus like a restaurant or a bar could have hundreds of fetal lines and balancing lines there going to be an entirely different project.
So, uh, w w w what does that look like at a Homebrew scale?
Garrett Allen: So at a Homebrew scale, um, it, it is all very dependent on, uh, yeah. What, what are you typically going to be serving and what. What carbonation levels those are going to be at. So if you’re a diehard seltzer fan and you want to be serving your seltzers at, um, four volumes of CO2, you’re going to want a lot of, uh, line length and, um, uh, much smaller inner diameter because I, I believe, and I’m not a, um, a.
Beer taproom, uh, expert. But I do believe that there are a couple of inner diameters that you can get your lines in and the smaller, the better, if you’re going to be serving, um, really high carbonated beverages. Um, but if you’re serving somewhere. In the typical beer beer range. Um, I think either is fine.
I would still consider doing the smaller inner diameters because you need less line length at that point. And yeah, I do believe there are a few calculators out there you can utilize, but, um, Yeah. Typical line line length. Uh, I think for that two and a half volumes, which is pretty standard for most beers.
Um, you’re gonna want about 10 feet.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. You’re going to want about 10 feet of line and that’s. When we talked about that balancing, uh, equilibrium chart, right? That’s at that, you know, 10 to 12. PSI on the keg. Right? So if you let’s say you’ve got like 10 to 12 feet of line and you’re going to get a poor, that’s going to be generally the right flow.
That’s coming out of your tap. Now, there, there are a couple of things you can do, right? So there’s things like, you know, uh, flow control faucets could allow you to have a higher pressure maybe behind it and not have to adjust your line length to, to. To get the right flow that comes out. So you’re still not blasting out.
So those are other things you can kind of put into the line, uh, or into the process to kind of maybe help you to up those pressures down. But I think, you know, you’re right. That 10 to 12 feet is about the right length. Yeah. Uh, let’s, let’s talk a bit about, uh, when you, when you think about, you know, the different.
Types of, uh, of, of packaging out there. Let’s, let’s just kind of sum this up and, uh, and, and, and just kinda get a, a good overall of, of what we’re kind of talking about today, right. Is basically, you know, if you’re bottling. And you’re trying to figure out the right amount of volumes. Obviously there’s calculators those calculators.
If you’re using beer Smith, you’re using brew father, uh, brewers friend, any of the major type of brewing softwares, they’re going to have built-in CO2 calculators in them. And a lot of that maths done for you to help you figure out what that sugar is. If you’re a brand new brewer, you’re going to have that.
Cheat that comes with your kit and it’s going to have the volumes already figured out for you. So follow those instructions well, and those are great ways to kind of get there. But if you want to do the math yourself, you’re going to want to take and convert it to a grams per liter on the CO2 side, and then figure out how much sugar is going to be there with a mathematical equation.
Is that how you would say if you were gonna figure it out yourself for bottling right.
Garrett Allen: Correct. And then also, um, keep in mind, uh, as the beers fermenting, uh, what temperature that beer is at and, um, pressure, which is most likely going to be pretty close to Emma’s ferric, because you are going to have already some carbonation in there.
So you do need to take that into account, especially if you’re fermenting a little. Uh, colder because there’s going to be more CO2 in solution before you’re even adding that sugar, that priming sugar. And, uh, you, you, they, you could risk some over
Colter Wilson: carbonation. Yeah. And we don’t want bottle bombs here. This is not this isn’t our goal.
And, uh, and so that’s a great way to figure it out. And then when we get into the kegging piece, there’s balancing or equilibrium charts that you can, you can get, and we will link to an equilibrium chart in the show notes. So if you’re listening to this, go down to the show notes, I’ll have a link to an equilibrium chart online, so you can check it out.
And really what that is is saying. You’re serving temperature, the PSI that you’re going to set on your keg and essentially how many atmospheres you want to achieve. And that is going to do all of the math for you on that chart to help you get there. And it’s a pretty simple process, right? Yeah,
Garrett Allen: extremely simple,
Colter Wilson: extremely simple C and I wasn’t, I know all this it’s just that I wasn’t very good at explaining it on my own podcast.
Shocking. And then
Garrett Allen: I don’t know if I did any better.
Colter Wilson: Uh you’re you’re doing great. We’re having a conversation about fear. This is what we’re here for. Uh, so, uh, we’ll have that on the show. And then from there, uh, another thing to factor in is just what, when you’re doing your tap lines, you want to think about, Hey, what is my normal serving pressure going to be?
Cause like, for example, I think if you have a seltzer line, you’re going to have a different length of line than if you have a standard beer line or if you’re going to have a beer engine, which I do have some guys in my club that have beer engines randomly crazy. Uh, they’re going to have a different, yeah, it’s cool.
And, but he’s going to have a very. Different draft line setup than somebody who’s got the standard set up. And from there, you’re going to then take your lines and factor them in on your standard. And then you’re going to adjust from there based on the type of beer you’re serving. Sound. That sounds pretty much right.
Sounds spot on. Awesome. Well, Garrett, thank you for coming on home brewing DIY, man. I really, really appreciate you reaching out and talking to me. And, uh, what, what kind of sets you work at a brewery? And you’re working with Scott, which is a great brewery. They, they definitely do not suck. Uh, you know, what, what, what do you w what, what does it look like for you guys in the next year?
And, and, and, uh, I, and obviously I hope the pandemic is behind us within the next year. Um, w how, how are things looking for Scott?
Garrett Allen: Things are looking well, um, the, I mean, I know a lot of breweries are struggling, a lot of local breweries or taproom only ones that really opened with that, uh, that taproom model are, are struggling really bad.
Uh, but, um, Fortunately, Scott is a, you know, we can most Canon distribute. Most of the beers we make. And so we we’ve been doing okay. And, um, yeah, we’re coming out with, uh, a couple of new beers to try and hit some, uh, gaps in our portfolio and, and yeah. Hopefully, um, become. Uh, staples or, or yeah. Become,
become, become staples in the future.
Colter Wilson: That’s awesome, man. Well, well thank you so much for coming on. I really do appreciate it. And, uh, you know, if you have a subject you want to talk to me about again, uh, please reach out to me, Garrett. I’d love to have you back on the show.
Garrett Allen: Awesome. Well, dude, thank you so much for having me.
Colter Wilson: All right. And welcome back to home brewing DIY, where we’re going to dive in to some feedback. Okay. The first piece of feedback I have here from James. And this is in reference to a episode in the back catalog, our one gallon batch episode. That’s by far one of my more popular episodes, I have to admit, I.
Jay, I’m a fan of the one gallon batch. I think they’re great. But, uh, let’s dive into this feedback. Hey Coulter, you asked me to send you pictures of my first brew day via the Patrion messaging. And I, and James is a patron and I did say, Hey, when he talked about he’s expanding his system and I was like, Hey, when you do it, Send me some pictures and he did, which is awesome.
And, uh, well that day’s come. And we went over the week between Christmas and new year’s and I was so worried that the setup and brewing that, uh, I never even took pictures. However, I just boiled that beer, which is a clone of new Holland’s Dragon’s milk, Imperial stout with bourbon soaked, Oak random. We tasted that beer last week and I never had a dragons built before that.
So kind of cool. We’re close to one of the numbers, the ATV, which was 9.5%. And it was supposed to be 11%. We use dry yeast. And I think that what we didn’t get our way up to 11. However, yesterday we brewed a five gallon batch, all grain clone of the bell, the Bell’s hop slime. We could have not picked a worst day.
15 degrees was the high three inches of snow in the morning. Uh we’re all on propane. So, uh, we got S w we’re. We were just stuck in the garage. We got it done. And we use the elements to our advantage and we were chilling, see pics and he’s, you know, got beer diving in the snow. So that’s awesome. And, uh, Then, uh, we did a batch of w we did do a batch sparge, but missed our volume by almost a gallon, still getting used to the boil off ratio of our kettles.
And we started to boil with seven gallons, any tips on getting that calibrated. Uh, and then that would be appreciated. And I would just Chuck it up to 15 degree temperatures and thermal dynamics. Cheers, James. So I do have a couple of. Tips for you. So first of all, you want to have a consistent boil. So let’s talk about your boil off rate.
One of the things that you’re going to find is that how vigorous you boil. Is also going to have a direct effect to how much, what your boil off rate is. Also, there are many, many calculators out there. Uh, if you go to my brew in a bag episode, in the show notes, there’s a link to a brew and a bad calculator there, and you can actually measure the width of your kettle.
The diameter, you know, and it’ll actually based on the diameter of your kettle, that can actually give you a boil off rate as well. But one thing that those calculators don’t factor in is how vigorous you boil. If you boil hard, you’re going to boil off more liquid than if you do a slow rolling boil. So.
Here’s what I do. I actually used to boil might be a really, really hard and I’ve actually stopped. Uh, I, I’ve now gone to where I just do a nice rolling boil, gentle, like I get it going. And then once it starts boiling, I turn, you know, if I was using a propane burner, which I don’t anymore, but I still turn it way down and just get a nice rolling boil and kind of let it do its thing there.
I realize. That the boil I’m here in Colorado. If I boil it as hard as I want, it’s still 202 greed degrees. Versus if I boil it. Slow and steady. It’s still 202 degrees. So in all reality, I just try to have a very consistent boil and the same boil every time. And that helps me hit my numbers a little bit better.
So I hope that tip helps a little bit. And like I said, there, there’s plenty of calculators out there where you take the width and try to figure it out. But the big key is you want to make sure you’re boiling at the same kind of whether it’s a slow rolling boil, or really hard boil that’s up to you.
Okay. But it’s, but you want to make sure it’s consistent from beer to beer, to beer because otherwise that’s one factor in it. So that’s my feedback there. The other thing I get, you know, the, the chilling in the snow. Uh, this is one thing that I I’ve I’ve learned is that a chilling in the snow actually is an insulator.
So for example, yes, when you first put it in there, it’s a nice, cool jacket on it. But then snow is a great insulator and it actually slows down your cool time. So kind of a one of those things that is just the opposite of what you think it is. That’s why when people make snow caves and they put a little candle in there, it can heat the whole thing.
Snow is a very good insulator. That is why. So, uh, just kind of w one good trick though, with snow is that if you have an immersion chiller, you can actually just put snow in a bucket and then ha and then take the hoe and a little bit of water and run it through with a pump. And then the, when it hits the snow, it melts it really fast.
And then instead of blowing through ice, so that that’s the way I would do it. And then you’re not trying to run your hose outside. So kind of a trick there. Uh, yeah. And the other thing I would say is that, uh, you’re talking about we’re close to our numbers and the 9.5 ABV and it was supposed to be 11. I do have some questions for you, James.
So give me a up email. I’d love to know what your, what your OJI and final gravity. Gravity’s were and what the exact dry yeast it is. I, I wouldn’t actually just chalk it up to dry yeast. It could be a lot of other factors than that. Obviously there is yeast. Attenuation can be part of it. But one thing is, is that when you’re doing really big into Imperial stouts, like that, they tend to finish in the 10 twenties.
And so a couple of things that you can do to get them to dry out a little bit more and get that ABV up. If you go to the big beers episode, Ryan talks about some of these things, but like, you know, using sugar to bump up your original gravity, but like, you know, pure table sugar, it also will help you dry it out that that’s going to help you get it down.
A few more points. Another way is obviously just, you know, what’s your mash temperature can make a huge effect as well. And also what’s your ratio of, uh, of, of different types of like, for example, If, if you’re using an all extract version of a big beer, like this extract is less fermentable than all green, which you are doing all green, but the point I’m trying to make is, is there’s a lot of different factors of to why you miss that.
And so I, I’m more curious of what your original numbers are, and I’d love to know a little bit more of what that full process looks like to help you kind of try to figure out how to get that, to hit the numbers you want to hit. So, uh, Love to hear another email from you, James. So, uh, thank you so much for the feedback.
And then I got a couple of reviews that we’re going to read today. This is a funny one, because the last time I read reviews, I got feedback that was like, Hey, let’s, let’s get back into the home brewing DIY shows. And then I got this, this review. I got a five-star review and this is from old Crow. 62. I’m really just getting into the all-grain brewing.
And I know that I have a lot to learn. I have a few books that help a lot and listen to a lot of podcasts. And of course, YouTube, I find that your podcast is one of the best. It brings information that I need to know, and the way that I understand it, most of the time, and as it’s presented in a way that it’s also entertaining and not completely over my head.
Sometimes other podcasts probably due to my lack of knowledge are teaching chemistry five, 10, and I’m more of a chemistry, one Oh one student I really enjoy brewing and want to thank you for your contribution to my brewing education and really enjoyed your last, uh, cast with, uh, Thomas J. Miller. I was a lot of good information and his book sounds interesting as well.
So thank you so much old Crow, 62 and yeah, I actually purposefully try not to get. Overly technical. I think a good example of that would be the water episode, water chemistry. When you read a book on it, go get the John Palmer book on water. It’s a great book, but there’s a lot of chemistry in there and it’s one of those things that.
For a long time. I avoided water in my brewing process because I thought it was going to be complicated. And then I heard John Palmer later on a podcast where he was just talking about it, just think of it as like salt and it’s seasoning. And he, and when he stepped away from it and talked about it in layman’s terms, it made it a lot easier for me to approach.
And then now I understand a sulfate to chloride ratio and what that means. But if you don’t just jump in and do it, you’ll never really get it. And so I totally try to approach really scientifically stuff, scientific things like that in a much needed way that is meant to be layman. So that, that is definitely on purpose.
So thank you all CRO 62. And then I have another one. This is from, uh, Smithy Kyle 1973. This is by far. My favorite podcast is the newest home. Homebrewer the information is very relevant and so useful. Even seasoned homebrewers can learn to enjoy subjects being discussed. I look forward to every week and the discussions and opportunities to learn.
Thank you for the podcast. And, uh, I know that, uh, Kyle Smith, who wrote this out is a. Patrion. So is a patron. So thank you very much for also writing your review, Kyle. I really, really appreciate it. Uh, now I guess that we’re done with feedback in the mailbag. Let’s wrap this puppy up.
I’d like to thank Garrett for taking the time to come and talk to us about carbonation this week. Check out his podcast, progress your beer. If you just look for it on any podcast app, it should show up. It’s also hosted on anchor. If you want to look there. I also want to thank everyone for writing feedback.
I really, really appreciate it. And if you want to write us feedback, you can always send it to podcast at homebrewing, DIY beer, or fill out the contact form. Well, that’s it for this week and we’ll talk to you next week.
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