This week we talk to Thomas J. Miller about how to make a great Oktoberfest. We also discuss his new beer themed novel: An Oktoberfest Death: A Bethany R. Judge Mystery
Check out his book here: https://www.thomasjmillerauthor.com/
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Show Transcript
AI created and it will have many errors.
Colter Wilson: [00:00:00] On this week’s show, I’m joined by Thomas Jane Miller. He’s a beer author and he’s now dove into his first work of fiction, but that work of fiction has a lot to do with beer. So we’re going to talk to Thomas about his new book, an Oktoberfest death. And we’re going to talk about brewing October Fest this week on homebrewing DIY.
[00:00:52] Back to homebrewing DIY the podcast that takes on the do it yourself, aspect of brewing gadgets, contraptions, and parts to show covers it all on this week show, we’re going to talk to. Thomas J. Miller. And we’re going to talk to him about his new book and we’re going to talk to them about great ways to brew in October Fest right now is the time to ruin October Fest considering it’s. [00:01:15] February March. And we’re going to talk about one of my favorite, favorite styles of beer, but first I’d like to thank all of our patrons over a Patriot. And it’s because of you that the show can come to you week after week, head on over to patrion.com forward slash homebrewing DIY, and give it any amount. [00:01:33] Your monthly support keeps this show coming to you week after week also. There’s another way to support the show. If you head on over to coffee.com that’s K O dash F i.com forward slash homebrewing DIY, you can give one time support and one time, time support, or monthly support. Any support is going to help this show. [00:01:54] Another way to support the show is to write us a review. If you’re listening to us on Apple podcasts, just leave us a review. Just scroll to the bottom of the app. You can see the five stars there right now and just leave us a star rating, or you can type us out a full review. If you do leave us a review, I will read it on the air. [00:02:10] Good or bad. Also, if you head on over to Pat chaser.com, if you’re, for example, on an Android, the only way you would be able to leave us a review is to head to pod chaser.com and that’s for slash homebrewing DIY. And there you can leave us a review. Paci is pretty cool website as well. Think of it as like the, I am DB of podcasting. [00:02:31] You can discover a new podcast there, or you could even. Add us to a list of podcasts that you like and share that with a friend. So kind of a cool site. Uh, the last way to support the show is to head on over to our website, homebrewing, diy.beer, and use our sponsor banners. You can use adventures in homebrewing. [00:02:51] If you’re going to buy something for your brewery, do it in adventures, in homebrewing, click on the link, and then they will know that we sent you. Also, if you bought a brew bag or if you buy brew, father, those websites are all going to link straight from our site and support the show. And what is going on in my brewery right now, first of all, I am completely out of beer right now. [00:03:15] I ju I, I made a hazy IPA that turned out so good and it was so good that I drink it quite quickly and I am out of beer. So right now in the pipeline, though, I am going to do a. A Pilsner. I I’ve gotten to do a new Pilsner and I’m still working on, on those types of beers. And also I think I’m going to make me a Saison. [00:03:40] I am due for one, but, uh, yeah. Well, that’s it. Let’s, let’s jump into this week’s show and talk to Thomas Miller. About October Fest. [00:03:56] I’d like to welcome Thomas J. Miller. He’s a prolific writer for the beer industry, a homebrewer since 1990. And he’s worked as an assistant brewer in Germany and Wyoming and among his publications. He is a regular contributor to brew pub and tips from the pros. And he’s a columnist for a brew, your own magazine. [00:04:18] So, Thomas, thank you so much for coming on homebrewing, DIY. I’m excited to talk day-to-day [00:04:23] Thomas Miller: [00:04:23] culture. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. [00:04:26] Colter Wilson: [00:04:26] So, Thomas, uh, I think that the first thing we should talk about we’re, we’re gonna get into talking about October fests and I think the big reason we’re going to talk about Oktoberfest today is because you recently just written a book about. [00:04:41] It’s actually a fictional novel, but has, I think October Fest plays a huge part in, in this novel. And why don’t you tell us a bit about the book you just wrote? [00:04:51] Thomas Miller: [00:04:51] Sure. Um, I like at the end of September, just published a novel called an October Fest to death. That’s the title, um, and working on that novel for, um, at least the last year prior to the onset of COVID and, uh, had, had gotten to this, uh, editing phase, um, in the, in the fall of 2019 before COVID hit. [00:05:14] And then COVID gave me a great opportunity. To really push this to this story, to the end. It’s the first in this series of what I call beer fiction, um, where, uh, history, culture, uh, and beer, uh, kind of collide in a series of stories. And it’s going to follow me in character by the name of Bethany, our judge [00:05:37] Colter Wilson: [00:05:37] and Bethany, you know, travels talk Tobar Fest in this book. [00:05:42] Right. And, and she, it’s kind of a mystery novel. Is that correct? [00:05:46] Thomas Miller: [00:05:46] That’s right. It. So Bethany is a retired Buffalo police officer. Uh, I lived in Buffalo for five years and he gives me a great place to set the story from a, from a character perspective and to launch her out into a career, uh, where she, she decides to retire from being a police officer. [00:06:05] Um, and discovers somewhat, uh, magically for herself that she possesses this amazing, uh, pallet, this amazing ability to taste beers, um, in ways that, uh, don’t come naturally to most other people. If anybody here knows what a master Cicerone is, she’s unlike any other person in the world because she’s able to rapidly. [00:06:27] Uh, achieve the level of master Cicerone or a beer expert. Um, the reality of becoming a master Cicerone is far different than what I fictionalized in the story, but it allows me to kind of push my character into a, uh, a situation where she immediately, uh, leaves from a divorced situation travels over to Munich, to, um, Uh, sample and, and really taste firsthand the freshness of Bavarian beers during the October Fest, but also all the different beer styles that would be available to her Munich. [00:06:59] So there’s plenty of opportunities for her to not just drink Oktoberfest beers, um, but also, uh, vise beers like drinking vise beer right now, uh, uh, have a style beers, uh, Varian Doko, um, and the like, so it’s, it’s just a chance for her to travel over to Munich. And as it turns out, uh, on the first night she overindulgence finds herself on a train to Salzburg and wakes up beside a person who’s been murdered in the training designer. [00:07:25] And from there spends the rest of the novel unraveling the mystery, [00:07:30] Colter Wilson: [00:07:30] you know, I’ve had some hella hangovers and I can say that that is one I have not had yet. And glad I haven’t. But that being said, uh, you know, I, I think that when we talk about Bavarian styles of beer and specifically, you know, Bavarian loggers and, and Fest beers and Oktoberfest, Uh, I have to admit that these types of beers at having been a home brewer for a lot of years, I haven’t been a home brewer since 1990, but I am pushing, you know, over a decade now of actively homebrewing. [00:08:05] I did brew my first batch of beer in 1998. So I did at least start in the nineties, but that being said over time, I’ve gotten to a place where. I think that loggers are really becoming probably some of my favorite beers out there. It’s almost like, you know, we, we come from a world where everything was pushed to lager, lager, lager. [00:08:26] We’ve gone into, you know, IPA land and lots of ales in the craft beer movement. And I think craft beer is still, at least specifically in the United States, stuck on the hazy IPA right now. But that being said. As somebody who makes beer and understands the craft that’s behind these Bavarian style lagers and the real artistry, I would say to me, it’s one of my personal favorite styles of beer. [00:08:54] So how long have you been making lager style beers personally? [00:09:00] Thomas Miller: [00:09:00] I have tried making lager style beers from the onset of becoming a Homer. And the reason for that is just simple. That. I, I started experimenting with drinking, uh, admittedly in high school, but it wasn’t like I was, um, just drinking all the time in high school. [00:09:20] I actually had the opportunity between my sophomore and junior years of high school to travel over to Germany for the very first time. And so my exposure. Two beer at a pretty young age was around that sort of the, the beauty of the way that, that German beer is served. The presentation of it, right? Not just the taste or the flavor or the effects of drinking the beer, but I can remember so clearly the long pours and the German Pilsner glass at that amount of time, that would take the poor Pilsner into a glass in a bar in Germany. [00:09:52] Um, and just becoming entranced with the presentation process of the beer so much, so that. When I returned home to the United States, my locker at school was actually filled with pictures of, of beers from German magazines that were available at the time. Right. It’s like, I just loved the imagery of it. [00:10:12] And so when I started brewing in 1990, uh, I tried my best to learn how to make lager style beers and what I can, what I can tell you is that if there’s one thing. To, um, be clear about with making successful lager beers is that you can’t cut corners. Um, primarily fermentation temperatures. If you’re going to make a successful, uh, lager beer outside of everything that you do with your ingredients outside of everything you do with your grain dough, outside that of everything you do on the hot side of brewing a lager style, beer success comes with managing. [00:10:51] The fermentation temperatures and the library process. You can do that, right? I think that you can do a pretty good job making a, uh, a German style lager as over. [00:11:01] Colter Wilson: [00:11:01] And personally for me, I think that right now is the best time to start thinking. And I’ve done shows on things like new order loggers recently, where we talk about doing pressure fermentations and I’ve done shows on, on doing, using certain clean to try to get, uh, what I call the pseudo lager. [00:11:20] Right. And, and making those styles. I actually had a Doppelbock this week that was made with a beer that was. Totally it up there with a lager beer, as far as quality and craft that this was made. Right. But, but for me, when, if you’re going to make it traditional lager right now, and you’re going to make an Oktoberfest beer you’re right now is the time. [00:11:48] Right? Because by the time you got through the fermentation and you’re going to get through that lager phase, you’re, you’re looking and we’re talking about traditionally made right. The idea and history behind it is that, you know, October Fest and Fest beers were traditionally made in the late winter, early spring to be enjoyed in the fall. [00:12:08] Is that right? [00:12:09] Thomas Miller: [00:12:09] Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s hard for us sometimes to remember that the October of us is over 200 years old, early 18 hundreds, right. Into place that in the context of what was available to brewers back in the early 18 hundreds, or like pre-industrial revolution, you know, they didn’t have. [00:12:28] Glycol, they didn’t have electricity, you know, they didn’t have all these resources that come naturally to two large breweries, you know, nano breweries or for us specifically homebrewers, um, things that we can take advantage of to manage, uh, temperature. Right. And, and in fact, just the other day, I actually very specifically did a double batch of a Helis logger purposely because this time of year for the, uh, for the chilling of the work, I, I have a immersion chiller, not a huge fan of the emergent chillers. [00:13:04] But, uh, it is clean, easy to clean. It is kind of quick advancing in that way, but I think that it takes a lot of effort, a lot of water to kind of run through it, to get a good chill, uh, post boil compared to a counterflow chiller. But the reason that I did it was I ran a hose from my outside, uh, spigot, uh, because it was running in ground temperatures that were very, very cold over having a nice cold snap here in the Midwest. [00:13:29] And so that allowed me to get my. Oh, with my beers as I’ve finished them down from boiling temperatures to like 48 degrees to pinch within, you know, 15 minutes or so, just running water through that hose and through, through the count of five children against the work back to me, you know, to your point culprit, this is the time to be making all sorts of augers and yeah. [00:13:51] October Fest beers. Follow up to that to really, to the style is more considered a mirror. When, like, when I talk about my novel and an Oktoberfest death, I originally had it titled, uh, merits and murder. Um, but changed it. I took a little Liberty and changed it to October because you know, the, the BGCT guidelines do consider the October Fest of style in a sense of the merits is the more traditional name and, uh, And, you know, Erickson in German means March and traditional German breweries took advantage of the cold weather. [00:14:24] It took advantage of the cold water, took advantage of the fact that this was the time of year to complete brewing, complete fermenting, and then start aging in cold cellars. So as to limit as best as possible, the potential for, uh, off flavors that could happen in a pre refrigeration time. [00:14:43] Colter Wilson: [00:14:43] Exactly. And, and I’ll, I’ll use an example that is close to me. [00:14:47] I have a gentleman who’s in by. Homebrew club. And he only ferment, well, he actually only brews beer in the winter because he has a dirt cellar that he ferments in. Right. And he actually makes all of his October fests and loggers in February and March because the cellar temperature in his dirt cellar is the right. [00:15:08] Is like the perfect temperature for fermenting lagers. And once he gets into mid April, the temperature just gets a touch, too warm. It gets into the mid sixties and he can’t do it. And so he actually, by the time, summer and that, and that’s when he does more of his Ailes. And then by the time may or June rolls around, he’s done brewing for the year. [00:15:27] And he actually, when you ask him, he brews with the seasons, it’s a very traditional way of brewing and that’s at a Homebrew level and he does a great job and he has some of the best beers in my club. And. When you look at the traditional way that these loggers were brewed, that is very much the reason. [00:15:43] Why is that? You know, you think about it, you have this dirt cellar and in the summer, it can get very, very warm. And you’re just not going to have the type of control you get when you’re looking at it, because having an adult seller is still going to keep it a generally static temperature, right. It’s not going to adjust between day and night so much, but yeah. [00:16:04] Over what what’s the overall climate changes for the season. You are going to get those types of temperature swings, right? [00:16:11] Thomas Miller: [00:16:11] Absolutely. And not only that, right when you’re dealing with ambient temperature. And then did the temperature increases that come during the fermentation process? If you are looking at a room, you know, I don’t know what the cellar temperature there was, but if it’s 62 degrees and that’s even rather warm, right? [00:16:28] If you’re down into the fifties and you start for many, you’re going to pick up several degrees of temperature, um, during the fermentation process that are still going to potentially throw off flavors into that beer. I admire this gentleman that you’re talking about and the fact that he’s able to do that, that is a cellar temperature. [00:16:43] That’s cold enough. What I, you know, back to my story of trying to brew as a, as a Homer early on and not having access to, um, that type of resource, I found precisely, uh, the sorts of issues that you’re describing of, of just not being able to produce a, a logger of any quality. The, the true saving grace for me as a home brewer was making the decision to get a, a decent sized, um, A freezer, chest freezer, and a external thermostat so that I can control the temperature. [00:17:18] And then, um, I use an anvil brewing system with some awesome stainless steel bucket for manners, um, that have a nice lid that you can just take right on and off. It’s some great valves. Um, and they fit right side by side. I could fit three of those stainless steel buckets inside the, um, inside the chest freezer that I have. [00:17:37] And then I, with that external thermostat. Yeah. I mentioned having the cold water from the hose to bring the temperature down rapidly. I can get the temperature down to in the right weather conditions down to 50 degree pitch temperature. Um, you know, maybe if it was a Slater slightly warmer day, maybe I can get to 55 and then sticking Sunday, that chest freezer briefly to get the temperature down to what I consider to be a good. [00:18:01] Like 50 degree pitching temperature, but then from there I can ratchet the thermostat down a little further. Uh, I haven’t sent, so I’m a double Helis batch. They just did right now. I haven’t sent to, to sit around 46 degrees right now at high crows and figuring that within the internal temperature of the, of the fermentation vessel, we’re probably sitting closer to 50 degrees and there abouts. [00:18:24] Colter Wilson: [00:18:24] Yeah. And I think that that’s one thing that a lot of homebrewers don’t factor specifically, if you’re a beginning homebrewer you don’t think about the temperature increase that you get from yeast activity, and you need to factor that in to your ambient temperature when you’re trying to get a certain temperature for your fermentations. [00:18:42] Personally, I use it till a hydrometer that is actually I submitted in the war directly. And so I get a temperature reading. That I think is, uh, uh, obviously a true temperature to the, the actual temperature of the wart. And so that’s the, that is the temperature that matters more to me or using something like a Thermo well in your fermenter is also going to give you a much better temperature reading than what you’re going to get. [00:19:06] If you just kind of. Take a temperature probe and stick it on the side of your bucket or on the side of your fermentor stainless steel fermenters, I think are going to give you a better reading just because they, they do pass the heat through a they’re they’re a little thermal, more thermal dynamic. And so I think that they are going to give you a better reading than if you have like a plastic fermentor, but still even then the temperature in the middle of that liquid is very different than the temperature on the outside of that liquid as well. [00:19:35] Right. [00:19:36] Thomas Miller: [00:19:36] I agree, 100%, I kind of go with the attitude of a judicious use of information tends to turn up decent results. And that’s what I find, um, with, with the setup that I have. Right. It’s like, I know that I can get a pretty good doing five gallon batches, right? It’s like, I’d love to do more, but some of it has to do with, you know, what can I actually manhandle lift and, and, and, you know, position in this chest freezer and you know, how much can I actually drink? [00:20:03] Uh, at any given time. So five gallons always seems to be a pretty good batch size for me. And, you know, you put it inside this vessel, as I talk about, and that can set that temperature and, you know, just an eyeball guests of a five degree increase seems to work out pretty well because. The quality of the product that, uh, I’ve been turning out has really has really been great. [00:20:24] And it’s, uh, it’s, it’s really neat to go from that early stage of home brewing where you might use glass carboys and plastic buckets. Um, and, and, you know, maybe brew on your stove top to start looking at some of the. Really awesome, uh, new tools, uh, and fun equipment that’s out there for homebrewers. I, I, I made decisions to get rid of all the equipment, just start experimenting with different things and as much as, uh, it’s tempting sometimes to want to, um, spend a lot on brewing systems. [00:20:57] Cause there’s some awesome things out there. These, uh, these electric brewing systems, once you get used to the, the efficiency. Of those systems and understand the process and tweak a little bit, particularly around the ladder and the barge. Uh, I’ve found that it works really, really well. And, um, and it doesn’t take up much space and it’s, and it’s a good price [00:21:22] Colter Wilson: [00:21:22] point. [00:21:22] Yeah. I, I get admit the, the advent of the electric. All in one systems that have come out, I would say in the last five years is kind of really when these have hit the market hard, I think the first one was obviously the brew father. And then you have your father clones that are all ranges of price ranges, right? [00:21:40] Yeah. But any of these systems are going to get, I personally, any of these systems are going to give you. As good of a beer as you could make with a, any brew in a bag system out there with a burner. And I also think that these systems are going to give you a very high quality beer, because like, for example, I personally don’t splurge. [00:22:02] I, it sounds like you do, but if you were into sparging, they have a really cool setup to be able to factor in your sparge. You just have to have a little bit of hot water on the side, and it’s not that hard. And I think that, that, that the ease of use of these systems I think are gonna make it so homebrewing is more accessible to more people. [00:22:21] Thomas Miller: [00:22:21] Yeah. And with the anvil system, I’ve made some, I don’t want to say like distinct modifications, but outside of the way that they describe using the there’s a pump that came with the ambulance system, there’s a host set up. There’s a way to pull the. Green basket out, posts, mash, and then too, like you can sort of set it up on this little, um, this, the Brack, and I suppose I actually run, I run, uh, I sorta do a foreign laugh throughout the match to get good clarity, but also to manage. [00:22:51] The temperature, uh, of the overall liquid that’s, you know, cause I feel like there’s a temperature probe. That’s only at the very bottom of the system, but it does like what you’re saying about the, for men or it doesn’t, it doesn’t tell you what’s actually going on inside the mash men. And so I w I do it for loft throughout the entire mash so that I’m getting some degree of consistency around what the temperature is and when I mash it, and this is true with the October Fest, I’m sure we’ll talk about this. [00:23:16] Um, Yeah, I worked through a temperature range. I start mashing it at a low temperature. I typically shoot for like the low end of the brewers windows. They call it like right around like 135 degrees Fahrenheit and it just let it rest there. And I get the temperature kind of set through re-circulation and then I just use the, the, um, the temperature control on the system to start moving up through recipes is until mash out at one 70. [00:23:40] And then when I elevate the grain out and it starts to rinse off. I set up that pump and the long hose and just make sure that the lid on the top of it is set in such a fashion as to not tip off. And then I just continue to research violate, uh, the word through the grain bed for a period of time, um, to again, get that consistent one 70. [00:24:00] To feel like I’m getting a good extraction from the grain. Um, and then after about maybe 15 to 20 minutes of doing that, it feeling like I’ve hit a good one. 70 is when I’ll come in and, you know, use about three to four extra gallons for sparging, and then I’m ready to boil. The one thing that I don’t have access to yet, just because of limitations from S from a space perspective is a two 40 volt setup on my system. [00:24:24] So it is a little frustrating, the slow boil. Um, so sometimes. What I’ll do if I’m in a bit of a hurry is I’ll actually pull some of the, some of the, uh, uh, uh, you know, during the boil, I’ll pull some off and run it into the kitchen and get a boil in there to try and help boost the thing up a little faster. [00:24:39] Outside of that, it’s been a great system. [00:24:41] Colter Wilson: [00:24:41] Yeah. Well, one trick that, uh, I’ve learned is is that if you get a, like a mask screen over the top of mine, I have a mash and boil, which is pretty much in the, in the, in it’s a one 10. If I get a mash instead of a lid, I can put a mesh screen over the top of it during the high boil. [00:24:59] So it still has enough. To boil off, but it also holds enough heat. And to give me a little bit more of a vigorous boil so quick there that you can do to get to help it kind of work and still not have problems with like DMS or something like that. Right. Yeah, got to boil them heart. So let’s talk about the October Fest and how to make a or, or a, or a Martin and how to make a great one. [00:25:25] Why, why don’t you walk me through maybe? Cause it sounds to me like you’re, you’re step mashing. You’re you’re doing a lot of the things that, you know, even when I make lagers with, with my logger shortcuts, there are certain things I do. Uh, you know, all of my batches, for example, I stepped mashed them all. [00:25:44] Um, I’m into at least doing a single decoction, if not a double or triple, depending on the style. W w what does yours look like? And what does your mask, your, what does your w what’s a, what’s the recipe look like? And then B what is the batch schedule look like? [00:25:59] Thomas Miller: [00:25:59] Okay. So. First I’m, I’ll be a little bit of a, of a German snob since I lived over in Germany and worked in a brewery in Munich. [00:26:08] So officially it’s called a right. So in Germany, March is pronounced Merix. And as you mentioned earlier, um, October passport for traditionally brewed or festivals in October Fest merits, as they’re called, were brewed in March during that entail end of the. Proper weather for sort of cold weather brewing so that it can then be brewed, fermented aged, and then served during and what then ultimately became the October of S merits and, uh, derive that name from, from just the time that it was brewed. [00:26:44] Right. Um, when I, what I shoot for. In my room. So there’s, and then on top of that, I should be putting out that there’s a merit system or the Oktoberfest, and then there’s a Fest beer style, the, the merits, and was the traditional style that, uh, really arose early on in the period of time. Of the October past, like the first October Oktoberfest was in 18, 10, no one can necessarily say for sure what the beer tastes like or what the recipes were. [00:27:13] I don’t think there’s any specific indication of what the recipes were, but beer back then tended to be darker, tended to promote more of these Munich Derby into style greens. Some of that was because they wanted it. Uh, a beer that was stronger, maybe been more full body because it actually assisted, um, in helping to cover up any potential off flavors that might occur throughout the summer. [00:27:37] Right? Like hops in today’s day and age can be used as a masking element. Uh, also for some, uh, let’s say less favorable characteristics that can rise in beer. Well, so congruent in red, if you use the right grain. You know, manage your, your brew. Um, you can utilize grain is a different way to mask off of putting elements. [00:27:58] And so. Israeli later in the mid 18 hundreds or so, so that there’s some suggestions in a first version of a modern merits and, um, came out so around like 1840, 1841, supposedly brewed by shot and brew in Munich. But then later on in 1872, there was. Uh, another brewery that became part of the broader spot in lineage, um, that introduced the very first October merits and that beer kind of that merits and style was the main beer at the October Fest for about the next hundred years. [00:28:30] And it was then made to run in the mid 19 hundreds and into the 1970s that he started to see a move towards. Now it’s called a festival beer and the festival is more like a German style. Helis. But it’s on steroids. So both Maritain and, and fess beer fall under the same, um, uh, ABV category somewhere between 5.8 and 6.3% IB JCP standards. [00:28:57] What I tend to shoot for is a little bit lower on that scale because I prefer to drink a little bit more myself than to, um, to push up the alcohol content and my, uh, my night’s a little sooner. And I prefer to drink, or I should say brew the, the, um, the merits in style. There was an article that I wrote for a brewery or a magazine quite some time. [00:29:19] And those tips from the pros article on is actually available. Um, uh, like outside of the firewall, people can search my pen name, Thomas Jane Miller, and the title of the article is called using Munich and Vienna malts. Um, it’s again, it’s a free article. It’s short, but it, when it talks, it has a couple of different interviews. [00:29:44] Just short comments from a couple of brewers, uh, that were working in the industry at the time that I wrote this one from a gentleman that was up in Minneapolis and another firm. Uh, brewer and Chilton, Wisconsin, and basically what they are viewed, um, is that there tends to be some confusion around how Munich malts versus Vienna malts, um, are best used in certain styles. [00:30:06] And, and while they, they tend to be seen as the same, they’re actually a bit different Vienna malt. Um, Has more intimating power. So it can be used as more as a baseball. Whereas Munich malt doesn’t necessarily have that same enzymatic power and canvas, or would be relied upon as a baseball. And so when I’ve worked to develop my, my merits and recipe, um, I’ve kind of utilized that the ideas that were generated in that article and, and, uh, sort of sampling around that idea. [00:30:37] What do I do if I want a sort of a grainy. Um, Brandy characteristic in my merits and in the Oktoberfest style. Um, and I, if I want to push the Vienna malt. And so, um, what I’ve done is created a green bill has been pushing 57 and actually the last one I did this past fall, I, I did 57% of the animal, uh, 29% Munich malt. [00:31:00] And then at 14% of a four Maltin Bohemian Pilsner. And it produced this, you know, from a flavor perspective, uh, as it, as it relates to the way that they described the way that, uh, Uh, merits and it should come across. It’s like everything that you had read about in the profile, it was great. It was branding. [00:31:21] This is rich. The color was like pushing this like dark Amber, the yeast that I used, which was an Imperial, um, global use from, uh, via Stefan. Just it, yeah, it was nice library and it cleared out. It was just crystal clear. Um, you know, beautiful in the glass. The mouth feel is. Was like smooth and creamy. It just had such great texture through that step mashing process that you just mentioned. [00:31:45] Um, I did not over carbonated, but I wanted to have enough carbonation that it would kind of fall to that, um, uh, moderate, uh, spiritedness on the tongue, uh, that kind of help eliminate any than this. Um, and then just really from a flavor perspective, um, there’s a word or a phrase in German that’s called a liquid bread. [00:32:05] Is what they call it, beer, food, cigarettes, prote. And so I was going for that idea of like drinking a glass of a brand concept. And I felt like this recipe, I plan on brewing it again, this, this time around, it really seemed to, um, really crush my expectations. I’m going to do a side by side of an October, customer merits and style and a Fest beer. [00:32:28] Um, so like that amped up, uh Helis um, for this year’s Oktoberfest festivities here locally. [00:32:36] Colter Wilson: [00:32:36] And w what kind of hops are you using in that beer? [00:32:39] Thomas Miller: [00:32:39] Yeah, so I grow hella tower hops on the side of my house. And so I’m a bit of a purist in that regards, but that being said, it’s a little bit difficult growing hops to know with certainty what you’re going to get out of that from a bittering perspective. [00:32:54] And so I tend to have a little. Um, apprehension about using those as a bittering hop in my beer and outside of the fact that leaf hops could be a little bit troublesome. So, so I do tend to use my homegrown Hala tower hops as a mild finishing hops and things like the Helis that I just brewed. Cause it is appropriate for that style and not overly, uh, uh, from a hot perspective, not overly flavored or aromatic, but, um, it does fit that style, but I tend to be appearance and I stick with what I like. [00:33:25] Um, and that’s the hollow tower hops and I use the pellets, which fall, um, and about the ones that I had this last year were, were, um, 3.7 AAUS. And so I boiled about 1.2, five ounces for 70 minutes and then 40 minutes, another 0.7 ounces. And so that the IVs on that were about 24. [00:33:46] Colter Wilson: [00:33:46] Yeah. And that’s totally within the, the BJC P style guidelines right there. [00:33:51] It’s it’s a little bit more of a bitter beer. You’re you’re not looking for that, like 10 to 15 IB use the mid twenties or, or that’s pretty much perfect. Yeah. Yeah. And then what, what does the fermentation schedule look like? [00:34:06] Thomas Miller: [00:34:06] So I think, um, as I mentioned, I try to, I try to set my pitching. I get the yeast, uh, pitched at around 50 degrees. [00:34:18] I think that that’s appropriate for these lager style. Um, yeasts, you don’t want to risk any shock and higher temperatures, um, and then try and bring the temperature down fast. It’s better. If you don’t have access to cold enough temperatures through a counterflow chiller or immersion chiller, I think you’re far better off closing down the fermentation vessel and just waiting before pitching you can’t force this situation. [00:34:43] Um, you don’t want to create any extra production, nothing like that. So I was able to get, uh, um, Pitched it around 50 degrees. And then I knocked the temperature down, as I mentioned to 48 degrees and let it sit there for, uh, six days, roughly. And then I started slowly after six days. I’m bumping it up just a little bit at a time, two days, uh, at 52 degrees. [00:35:08] Um, and then I did, uh, three days at 56 degrees and then finished with. Three additional days, uh, at 68 degrees Fahrenheit for a diacetyl rest. And, um, then after that I crashed at 33 degrees and just let it sit. So let it sit for at least a month, but I would recommend even longer than that to really just give it a chance to, um, to, to really Mel these beers benefit. [00:35:35] Um, just from, from the time resting. When I, so when I worked in the brewery and, uh, Munich, uh, one of the things that always will strike me forever, it certainly struck me at the time was walking through the fermentation cellars and seeing these massive fermentation tanks that were just covered in ice. [00:35:58] Just covering a nice, right. So the, the beers are inside. Those tanks were maturing at basically freezing temperatures are pretty darn close to it. Right? So the benefits to the beer, um, you, you just can’t rush the process and I know there’s a tendency to want to make things go faster. But we should not consider ourselves fortunate to have access to all kinds of great beers that you can die. [00:36:23] So if you can just be patient with the stuff that you’re making, I think that you’ll find you get yourself in that rotation of a brewing and give, just give your beer more time, your hunger more time. Um, you’ll be far better off for [00:36:35] Colter Wilson: [00:36:35] it. Yeah. I think that the first lesson I learned is is new homebrewer was stopped messing with your beer and just let it do its thing. [00:36:43] And I found that I ended up with a lot better beer. It’s shocking how that’s probably the best piece of advice you can give a new brewer and, uh, [00:36:55] Thomas Miller: [00:36:55] And we have the luxury. We have the luxury of not needing to generate revenue, right? If you’re, if you’re brewery, you know, if you’re a brewery and you’re like, you got to get stuff in the mouth that your customers to pay the bills. [00:37:06] And so you have to turn product when you’re, when you’re working. For the business, so to speak. But when you’re a Homer, you have the ability to say, all right, here’s what I’m going to do. Okay. I’m already thinking in terms of here’s my rotation for the next six months, here’s how I’m going to let these two houses from it. [00:37:26] Here’s what I plan to package them. And then here’s the next thing that I’m going to move into. And I won’t continue because I have this, this retrofitted chest freezer. I can continue to make lagers, um, as long as I can manage to get the temperature, the temperature of the work down quick enough for pitching, right. [00:37:43] I can, I have that luxury. Um, but, but it’s like, I’ve already sort of mapped out in my mind, what’s going to happen. And when I’m going to start moving over Hills. [00:37:52] Colter Wilson: [00:37:52] Yeah, exactly. And one thing that, uh, you, you talked about using the vine Stefan yeast is, was that, is, is that a liquid yeast, powdered yeast? [00:38:02] Which, which one are you using? [00:38:04] Thomas Miller: [00:38:04] I have never. Ever use powdered yeast, dry yeast. Um, and to my knowledge, it’s possible that I’ve been to more, more, um, breweries, small breweries that have utilized, uh, these, these dry yeast strains. And the only place that I noted, I didn’t like the beer. So it kind of sent me in a position of thinking that perhaps I will never use dry yeast. [00:38:28] I, uh, I guess it’s just, you know, I’m being a little bit, uh, snobby, I suppose to say that I really want to, um, to try and be as pure about it as possible and, you know, utilize what I know. As a homebrewer for all the time that I’ve done this, that the best yeast out there was always the liquid yeast, right? [00:38:50] Whether it was white labs or why you used now, I’m using the Imperial and use because you can get the, the larger, um, pouches with the, so you get more pitch capacity for each pouch and from a dollar and us dollar, for dollar perspective, you give more value out of it. That’s another. Important aspect, I think to a logger is that you want to pitch heavy. [00:39:11] You know, you don’t want to pitch lightly again. You want to keep the strain off the yeast. I mentioned that I’m sipping a home-brewed half invites him right now. Hummingbird half advice. And is the opposite. You kind of, you don’t want to like under, under pitching, but you don’t want to, you want to give the yeast a little bit of a, of a struggle and a half of bites and to help add to the banana clove and Alex? [00:39:32] Well, the opposite is true and it happened, or I’m sorry, in a, in a helos or an October Fest. So I pitched with two pouches of the, uh, of the, um, buying Stefan Eastern Imperials. But with this Helis then, and it just now keep going back to that. Sorry. But, um, I decided to do a side by side comparison, sort of for my next October Fest. [00:39:52] Just see dry, want to do it with the same five Stefan and periods of strain, or do I want to switch over to the Amish industry? And that’s also available. There’s an L 17 L 13. So I’m testing them both out side by side with the same recipe. [00:40:06] Colter Wilson: [00:40:06] Yeah. And so, because you’re using the Imperial pouches, you’re not doing a starter because when I’ve done lagers specifically with liquid yeast, I I’ve done as big as a three liter starter to get them going. [00:40:17] Just because you just, like you said, you don’t want to strain the yeast. You want it to take off as fast as possible. And especially at those low temperatures, you, you, you’ve got to really get a good pitch in there. Or are you making a starter or you just throw in the pouch right in there. [00:40:32] Thomas Miller: [00:40:32] Yeah. So I used the two pouches and I do not do a starter. [00:40:36] I go back to that concept of, um, judicious reasonableness around what I have time to do sometimes around home brewing. And what I’ve discovered is that two of those pouches, um, Workbrain right. [00:40:49] Colter Wilson: [00:40:49] 400 billion cells. That’s pitch. Yeah. That’s [00:40:52] Thomas Miller: [00:40:52] a cute age. Yeah. And then from there again, I mentioned that those bucket from Anders and they have those. [00:40:59] Those tops that lift right off. Right? So from there, I, you know, maintain very, uh, strict cleanliness throughout the, the packaging process. And when I get down to the very end that I go through and at a serious process of harvesting the yeast. So it’s my expectation that I’m going to get multiple brews out of both of these pouches. [00:41:21] So they both get both these two different styles of which I’m up. Two patches eats, right? The L 17, 13. So I will harvest those. And utilize those for multiple iterations of beers going forward. [00:41:33] Colter Wilson: [00:41:33] Yeah. And, uh, and then let’s, let’s talk a bit about, you know, you, you’ve got the cold conditioning and carbonation. [00:41:42] Are you doing any type of, are you S are you spending these beers at all? Are you doing any type of, uh, uh, of, of that type of, of carbonation or are you just using CO2 to carbon animal? So I, [00:41:55] Thomas Miller: [00:41:55] uh, I, uh, from a packaging perspective, I have stuck to the tried and true putting stuff in bottles. It’s not really my favorite way of, I would admit. [00:42:05] Uh, but I CA I kind of keep going back to it because it’s just easy to take places. And, um, I, it doesn’t lock me down to always having to be like, well, we’re going to just sit here at my place and drink beer instead. It’s like, I can. Throw it in a cooler and go visit with their friend or whatever the case may be. [00:42:23] And so, um, uh, you know, I, I feel it’s a, it’s a little bit more traditional to the home brewing style, then the complete joy of home brewing type of concept of just using, um, bomber style bottles or good 12 ounce bottles. So that it’s easier to share with friends. I really like, um, I really like bottled conditioned beer in general. [00:42:45] I mean, Were to mention, um, Sierra, Nevada pale ale as being like a great example of a beer that you just can never argue with, you know, or develop over in Belgium as far as like stuff that shows the quality of, of what a condition beer can be. I don’t really find any reason outside of sometimes time and, uh, issues around cleaning that would make me want to switch over to doing something like cakes. [00:43:12] Colter Wilson: [00:43:12] Carbonating a beer in a bottle also helps scrub it of oxygen. That that’s a big thing that it does is essentially you’re. You’re just kind of doing a, a little mini ferment, a second fermentation in a way. And then. Yeah. And, and also I just, the bubbles in a, in a bottle condition beer, I know that if you do a side-by-side black tasting, most people can’t tell, but to me, and this is just a personal opinion, I can taste the difference. [00:43:39] I think that specifically Belgian styles, I think have a certain carbonation when their bottle condition is just amazing. And so for me, those are the types of things that I love. Bottle conditioned beers as well. I don’t follow condition a lot of them, but, uh, when I do, I love them. So [00:43:56] Thomas Miller: [00:43:56] also that thing of added health benefits supposedly right from the yeast that you get to ingest. [00:44:02] And now as homebrewers, I guess we wouldn’t really avoid that, um, or eliminate that even if it came a can of beer, but still it’s like, again, looking at my half a bites and then I poured and I poured it sort of in the traditional way that Germans. A four and half advice and to make sure you get the next swirl at the end and, and for the last bit of the, of the, uh, yeast into the, into the glasses and it makes sure you have it all in there. [00:44:25] Um, as part of the experience, and I enjoy the experience, again, I go back to that part where I fell in love with the way that beer looks. And, um, and so I kind of always tried to emulate that. [00:44:36] Colter Wilson: [00:44:36] I agree. I completely agree. I think, uh, we, with our eyes as much as we eat with our, our mounts, right. And th and this comes from my years in the restaurant business with food, but it’s also the same with beer. [00:44:49] If I’m looking at a beer style that I expect to be crystal clear and beautiful, that that’s what I expect. And that’s what I, my wife. Laughing at me when I’m in the kitchen, looking at my beer through the light to make sure that the, it has the, you know, the brilliance I’m looking for, or if I make an, a hazy IPA, I want it to look like orange juice, right? [00:45:07] The point is you, you gotta, whatever that style is, you got to make it look the way it’s supposed to. So that it’s true to style. And, and you’re trying to mimic something and it’s, it’s going to be a beautiful thing. So I completely agree with you. I couldn’t agree with you more. [00:45:25] Well, Thomas look, let’s look, I’d love to, you know, find out what’s the best place to find your book. I’ll link to it in the show notes. If you’re listening to this to get a bit deeper dive, uh, can we find it on Amazon? Are there, or do you have any local retailers that you might have your book out? [00:45:42] Thomas Miller: [00:45:42] So, um, if I’m not retailers yet, that’s proven to be a bit more, a little bit more elusive. [00:45:49] Um, selling through bookstores is more challenging unfortunately than I would like to, uh, admitted, um, the, the places where you can easily access my book. One would be my author website, which is my name, Thomas J. Miller author.com. And then, um, if you order from my author website, I do sign those books for each book that’s order and they’ll send them right to you. [00:46:13] It’s free shipping. Um, so it’s a quick one to buy on, on Amazon. Um, it is available on Amazon. It’s available on Barnes and noble. If there are people out there that happen to work in bookstores, um, or our librarians, uh, the book is also available through those major sites that allow for wholesale purchases of books to be put in bookstores and to be put in to a library. [00:46:37] So such as Ingram or Baker and Taylor, um, Uh, but continue to work on spreading the word, you know, it’s, it’s, uh, this is the first novel, um, reminding that listeners, uh, it’s called an Oktoberfest death. Uh, I’m in the editing process right now, the second in the series. And I’ll continue following, um, Bethany now into the American craft beer scene. [00:47:01] So. Know that now American craft beer scene will sort of surround the adventures that she finds herself, uh, involved in. And I imagine that this is going to be about a five or six book series when it’s all said and done. [00:47:17] Colter Wilson: [00:47:17] Awesome. Well, I, I look forward to reading the book that is out now, now, and looking forward to reading the future books. [00:47:26] I’m actually a very avid reader, so I will read them and very excited. And Hey, I’m an avid reader of books about beer and fiction about beer is something that. I definitely want to get into, so it head on over to our show notes. I will put links to his website so that you can get a book and check it out. [00:47:46] And Hey Thomas, thank you so much for coming on homebrewing, DIY, if you ever want to come on the show again, please reach out. We’d love to have [00:47:54] Thomas Miller: [00:47:54] you. Cool. Thanks so much for your time. And thanks everyone for listening. Hope to hear from everybody, and please feel free to order the book for you and your family. [00:48:02] Thanks very much. [00:48:05] Colter Wilson: [00:48:05] All right. And we’re back. And it’s time to dive into some feedback. I’m pretty excited about this week’s feedback. I got a couple of good pieces and I’d love to. Dive into them. So let’s start with the one from Craig. Craig sent me an email. He went over to our website, home brewing, diy.beer and filled out the contact form. [00:48:25] And he said, hi, I love the show. Just listened to the bottles, kegs and cans episode. You touched on the subject. I have often wondered about when you condition beer in a keg with priming sugar, do you need CO2 to dispense the beer later or will the existing carbonation after the two weeks be enough to move the beer from keg to glass? [00:48:48] I think that’s a great question. And. Yes, once you pressurize it and you put it on serving, you will be able to pour probably a glass or two of beer. But then at that point you will have run out of the pressure that is in the Headspace. There will still be bubbles in the beer, but the, the, the PSI and the keg will go down as you pour beers. [00:49:12] And so at that point, if you’ve keg, conditioned a bottle, sorry, if you’ve. Priming sugar conditioned to keg. So for example, if you’ve done something like you’ve splendid a, a keg to carbonate your beer, or you’ve done added sugar, priming sugar into it to carbonate it and done it at room temperature, you’re going to want to chill that down because then you’re going to get. [00:49:38] More CO2 in the keg in, well, more CO2 in the beer itself. And then you’re still going to have to put about 10 and 12 PSI on the actual CAG to get it to serve so that it goes through your lines and actually fills your glass. So unfortunately you still have to have a CO2 tank and you still have to have a fridge to dispense beer. [00:50:00] So, uh, we’d all love to think of different ways. There are some cool tools for it. One trick when I take kegs to go is I have these little, they look like they’re basically like. CO2 cartridges you would use for like a BB gun. And there’s a little tool you can get there about $15 and you just buy a box of those and you can attach those to a ball lock connector or a pin lock connector. [00:50:30] And then you just put that on there and that’s enough gas to actually push out a keg if it’s ice cold, when it, when it goes out and it takes about two cartridges to push an entire keg. So just a quick trick there, when you’re trying to do something on. Uh, to go, but if you’re going to be kicking it at home, you’re definitely want to put some gas on it. [00:50:48] So, uh, great question, Craig. Thank you so much for asking. And then I have another piece of feedback and this piece of feedback is from John Hunt and. Here’s what he had to say. High culture. I wanted to thank you for the wonderful podcast. Homebrewing has been a passion for me from back when I brewed my first batch of cider back in 2008, sometimes due to my work schedule, it’s hard for me to brew. [00:51:17] And in 2019, I decided I needed a kitchen dedicated to brewing. However, as I do not. Have a lot of time dedicated to brewing as it is. And the time that has went slowly and that time has slowly went into building my setup. Well, in the middle of this, build-out. That is still not done. I found your podcast and finding your podcast has been one of the best things that has ever happened to my home brewing as even though I have not finished my buildup I needed to for, I needed to ferment. [00:51:49] So I made a site or something and I have only made a few times, but this one is the, one of the best batches I’ve ever met, made. I’ve also started making some yogurt and as, uh, and that is similar to. Since there are active cultures. I know that I could brew beer at any time as I could and use my normal kitchen, but just that any it’s just that I don’t have any free time and I have to spend that building out my brew kitchen. [00:52:21] So the cider and yogurt virtually take no time. And they’re good fix for me until I finished my brew kitchen. So, Hey dude, finish the brew kitchen, man. You need to bring some beer. I’m kidding. But. Yeah, I I’m the same way. I like to ferment all kinds of things and, and beer is not the only one. So I think that’s awesome. [00:52:40] So also some projects that I’ve worked on that are fun and possibly something that you want to talk about yourself. I am back to reading the email by the way. So, first of all, Stein beer, I made a seven gallon stainless steel pot, uh, heated all the water by putting granite blocks in from the burning hardwood fire. [00:53:01] And then I swapped stones using a spatula that, uh, I had attached to the bottom of the stainless steel rod. And then I wanted to expand this by replacing the pot with either a stone or wood vessel. And this is one of the most unique beers that I’ve ever had. Whereas there is a dark caramel, smoky notes as well is a light mineral taste. [00:53:28] So he’s kind of done a beer using granite blocks to kind of get the beer up to that boiling temperature. So very, very cool. Number two, a double brew fermentation. I had no idea how this would work out and I don’t really know what to call it. So I made a stout and I hit it with double the amount of yeast that, um, you would to let it ferment once the fermentation kind of fizzled down, I put it back on the pot. [00:53:56] Heated it up added a bunch of molasses and granola and oats. And then I let this for men out and then gave it about a five gallon into a five gallon whiskey barrel. The set it up, turning out into a really good tasting sour beer with some crazy plum notes. So sorry for the long message, but keep up the good work. [00:54:15] Thanks, John. Uh, that second fermentation, the project that you’ve made there is. Kind of a unique beer. I, I don’t even know what I would call, call it definitely wouldn’t call it a stout, but, and definitely a very different and unique way to make a beer. But yeah. Hey, as long as it tastes good in the end, it doesn’t really matter how you got there. [00:54:39] I mean, obviously we want to talk about how you got there, but I have nothing bad to say. I think that that’s cool that it turned out and that it’s a cool sour beer. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for the feedback, everyone. And if you want to leave us some feedback and have it read here on the air, just head to homebrewing, diy.beer, leave, click on the contact tab and you can leave us a note there. [00:55:01] Or you could just send an email to podcast at homebrewing, diy.beer. That’s our email address. Another way to give us some feedback is on social media and you could give us feedback there as well. So any way to get us feedback is great. Well, I guess it’s time to wrap the show up. [00:55:33] I’d like to thank Thomas for taking the time to come on this week. Show talk about his book and really do a deep dive in making great loggers in October Fest. I personally love talking about German beers. So it’s always a good time. And I think that we had a pretty cool, great conversation. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. [00:55:54] We’re on all the socials. Just look for homebrewing, DIY, all one word and give us a follow it’s good time over there. That’s it for this week and talk to you next week.
