Episode 67- Beer Chef- Lambic Style Ale

This week Cliff Sulivan sends us a Lambic Style Ale and we compare it to a commercial example the Boon Vat 92. We have two BJCP certified Judges taste the beer and who will win? Listen to find out!

Here is a link to the yeast information about Cliff’s beer. Look in the spreadsheet and you will see Alternatives to Alternatives.

https://www.mainiacalyeast.com/pro-brewers

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Show Transcript

AI created it will have many errors.

Colter Wilson:  On this week’s show. This is going to be our first attempt at the beer chef competition. Where we take a home-brewed beer and put it up against a commercial example. And see who wins. Think of it as like the iron chef of beer. So we have a beer this week from Chris Sullivan and we’re going to taste his lambic-style ale. And we’re going to have a test by BJC P certified judges and we’ll see how it goes this week on homebrewing diy.

 And welcome back to home brewing DIY the podcast that takes on the do it yourself, aspect of home brewing gadgets, contraptions in parts. This show covers it all. On this week show, we have a beer from cliff Sullivan where he has submitted it to our beer chef competition. Where we are going to taste his lambic style ale, and we’re gonna put it up against the commercial examples in the BJC P guidelines. 

Then we’re going to have it tasted by to BJC P certified judges. And we’re going to see which beer is the winner. This is going to be a unique show for us and hopefully an ongoing thing. So we’re going to sit back and enjoy and listen to this week’s episode. But first I’d like to thank all of our patrons over a Patrion is because of you that this show can come to you week after week. 

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Remember our upcoming. Homebrew hack show, which is the last show of the year is coming hard at you fast. That’s actually two weeks away. So make sure you listen to that. It is going to drop on new year’s Eve. 

Probably in most years, not 2020, that would be a show that would probably get some traction after new year’s Eve. But considering. Hey. It is. 2020. And there’s not a lot of people out. You know, if you, if you, if you want something to enjoy, enjoy the Homebrew hack show. So that is coming up. At the end of this month and it will be our last show of the year. So very, very excited for that. 

Well, I’m going to keep this kind of short and sweet let’s just jump into this week’s episode we’ve it’s kind of a long one so we’re going to do the beer chef competition with cliff sullivan and his lambic style 

today, I’d like to welcome cliff Sullivan, Austin Griffin, and of course, return recurring guests on the show. We have Ryan pack buyer. I hi everyone.

So what we’re, what we’re going to do is we’re going to have our first attempt and our first go at our, at the home brewing DIY iron beer competition. I’d like to thank cliff Sullivan for taking the time to ship us a beer all the way from California. And we went out and purchased some commercial examples to compare his beer too.

And. He went with, he went with a pretty hefty beer for our first, well, we’re going to do a lambic style beer today, and I guess to start off cliff, why don’t you tell us a bit about this lambic style and what you were going for?

Cliff Sulivan: Uh, truthfully, I was going for to S I was trying to find out what the contributions to the, um, to the fungus and bacteria added would have to beer. So this was a new one for me. Um, it’s not as spontaneous from, or an ambient fermentation or anything like that. It’s, uh, it has lab organisms in it, but, um, A lot that I weren’t very familiar with.

So I really just was going for a blank slate and I still don’t really know how to judge this beer. So when I saw what you were doing, I figured out this is a great opportunity to get some, some more objective feedback, because I know what I, what I did do it, you know, but, uh, you know, you don’t.

Colter Wilson: and what we’re going to come. So we have cliffs, lambic style beer here that we, and he sent us three, seven 50. So. I, it, it, I hope this beer is delicious. Cause if it is, I’ve got a lot of it to drink by myself. My wife does like sour beer. So, uh, I’ll share some with her. We’re going to do a comparative to two other commercial examples today.

So we are going to compare this beer to live in ruins, which is a wild Saison style beer that is made by true brewing here in Denver, Colorado. One thing that we’re going to do as part of this, we are Ryan. And I, and Austin are all from Denver. And so we want to put in and Denver has great beer. So we’re always going to put in a local example from a brewery for the officials.

And then we have the goose boon bat 92, which is a barrel aged lambic beer. And this is it. As far as I know a great example of a lambic style beer

Cliff Sulivan: Yeah, that’s just not fair for me. You know, that’s, that’s a pretty brutal to,

Ryan Pachmyer: It’s the Bobby Bobby Flay of a lambic or goose beer.

Cliff Sulivan: yeah, that’s a ringer right there.

Colter Wilson: is that being said, we’re, we’re going to taste these beers. We’re going to see how it holds up. So w as, as guests here in our judging panel today, I will, we’re going to say that my judging doesn’t matter. I am not BJC P certified. And to be honest, I think that I’m an okay, beer taster.

I am definitely not going to be. Somebody who is really studied the, the, the process of beer tasting. But I do have Ryan pack Meyer here who has been on the show before he is a BJC P certified judge. And then we also have Austin Gribben, who is also a BJC P certified judge. And he loves to brew lambic style beers.

So he is somebody who, as a home brewer is in love and loves the style. So let’s. Start off, where should we start with the commercial examples and move to the home-brewed? Or should we start with the home-brewed and move to the commercial? What are we thinking?

Austin Grippin: So I have all the samples blind numbered in cups.

Colter Wilson: We, we, we were going to do blind and then I realized that there was no way for us individually to taste the same beer. And I was like, we should’ve thought about that. So that’s why I was like, well, just do it as a, as a panel versus a blind. you, you can let yourself in on what’s what’s in your numbered cup.

Ryan Pachmyer: And in fairness and the iron chef in many of those shows, they do, uh, often know who is making the dish. So. There’s no massive prize here. So I guess there’s no, we’ll be okay.

Colter Wilson: So what we’re going to do is let let’s start. I, I guess let’s do commercial first. We’ll start with the.

Ryan Pachmyer: Okay.

Colter Wilson: Let’s let’s go with the ghost Boone and then we’ll, we’ll go that way. And then we’ll finish with the home-brewed example at the end. sound good to everyone.

Ryan Pachmyer: Yup.

Colter Wilson: All right. This is a corked bottle. So.

Ryan Pachmyer: When’s the last time you had this one, Austin.

Austin Grippin: I don’t think I’ve ever actually had that 92 before I do drink. I mean, if I’m just feeling goose and I’m, don’t want to deal with buying anything expensive. I mean, normal boo-boos is such a good go-to.

Ryan Pachmyer: That’s what I usually get that or the . Yeah.

Austin Grippin: Yeah, that’s a great one too.

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah. I think I’ve only had the other Boone’s like once or twice.

Austin Grippin: It’s got that nice deep boom, dark Amber color to it.

Colter Wilson: All right. So we’ll start with Austin. So tasting this based on the obviously BJC, JCP style guidelines of the lambic style beer, how does this hold up to those guidelines? And what do you think.

Austin Grippin: I mean, I think it holds up very well. It’s definitely really smooth. I get a lot of vanilla actually from this. Um, but then there’s that, you know, the really nice, like cheesy funk that comes up on the end. And then it’s just kind of like a nice spice kind of going on for me personally. Uh, I think that’s also probably contributed from the wood overall.

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah, I like this a lot. Um, I think it hits the guidelines pretty well. There’s more barrel character than you get from a lot of them though. I think. Um, yeah, I can get some of that vanilla too. Maybe like kind of a light smokiness as well. a lot of them are more neutral than that, but this is interesting and, uh, yeah, certainly, uh, a good beer to base the guidelines on. I think the guidelines are based on let’s see, I have it up in here. The, um, the regular goose boon.

Austin Grippin: Yeah.

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah, that’s the first thing named in the commercial examples actually is the regular one. So that’s not surprising at all. And I guess this one being called that 92, I mean, this one is supposed to probably have a little more Oak character.

Austin Grippin: Yeah, I believe so widget. I think it’s fresh Oak and that’s what also contributes to the smokiness. But.

Ryan Pachmyer: yeah. Yup. The spicy smokiness result of the Oak fooder. Okay. Cask clearly contributing to the land at Caroma. Yeah. All right.

Colter Wilson: That. And I do get a slight tannin from the wood. It is very slight, but you, you do get that. I would say midway through. It crossing the pallet. It’s not upfront, it’s not at the end, it’s kind of in the middle there. And it’s really when the sourness on this is, is very, very slight. It’s. Oh, it’s there, but it’s so subtle.

It’s,

Ryan Pachmyer: It’s very smooth. Yeah,

Colter Wilson: it’s very, very smooth, not tart in any way.

Austin Grippin: 8%. I think this is a dangerous winter beer.

Ryan Pachmyer: yeah. With that Oak barrel and the 8% it, um, yeah, it’s, it’s fuller, but it’s just so smooth.

Colter Wilson: It also, it doesn’t taste like an it’s not boozy at all. There’s it almost feels like a four and a half or 5% beer. And that’s really where this beer is super dangerous. That’s just a great beer. All right, guys, we ready to move on to true.

Austin Grippin: It has been a while since I’ve had a 25 from them.

Ryan Pachmyer: same here. I think last time I had something from them was a clean beer. I bought their pills a few times.

Colter Wilson: Same here. Last time I had a hazy IPA from

Ryan Pachmyer: Okay.

Colter Wilson: but I will say this is a mixed culture. Saison ale Dunan it is also a, a food or a food or fermented beer as well. And so I felt that as a local example and what was available to me, I felt that this was something that would hold up 92.

Ryan Pachmyer: well, I mean, this should be, um, kind of like what cliff did then. Cause, I mean, Clifton spontaneously fermented, although, I mean, Boone didn’t really spontaneously fermented, right? I mean, they made the work and they put it in wood casks that were just filled with bugs. I’m sure. Or they’re cool ship, which is filled with bugs.

So in a way they’re kind of all the same, a little more of that kind of butyric smell on the nose for sure. In this one.

Austin Grippin: Definitely,

Colter Wilson: I get a touch of the, like that horse blanket kind of smell.

Austin Grippin: definitely a more funk forward Cezanne from them. Okay.

Ryan Pachmyer: Yup. And the, uh, the sourness is much more assertive in this one. Whereas the Boone one. I mean, when I think goose, I really think of like this like refined depth, complex balance. Um, but when I think of when I’m tasting this, it reminds me of like American sour beer almost. Um,

Colter Wilson: Same here. It’s very, very sour. I would say almost too sour.

Austin Grippin: Eric and

Ryan Pachmyer: I mean, it’s good though. And you can actually taste, uh, there’s some kind of citrusy hops underneath this as well. Which is, uh, definitely different than what you’d get from something from Belgium. It’s actually kind of pleasant flavor though, to be honest.

Austin Grippin: Continue. As I keep drinking it. I like it more and more. The hops are, I think actually coming out more and getting more bright. Um, definitely just kind of needed.

Colter Wilson: Well, it’s kind of crazy when you think about how different these two beers are yet, when you looked at the, when I looked at the label and I’m trying to figure out what’s going to be good in this panel, like, all right, these are made in similar ways. Right. But in the end, they’re really not. So.

Ryan Pachmyer: Well, they’re also going for something different too. I’m sure true. Wasn’t like, I want to make a classic goose beer goose beer when they made this. I’m sure they’re just looking for fun flavors and the mixed culture. And they wanted to throw some hops in there as well to kind of give it a little more depth and, uh, help balance it out, especially with how much the onus is on this.

Cliff Sulivan: Of. You know, Belgian style lambics and stuff like that. I get a tannic bite to it. It’s not a sour bite, but it’s clearly panic and a lot of American examples of mixed culture. I’ve, you know, there’s not the Titanic. Astringency, that’s kind of pleasing in a lambic style. It’s more butcher driven and not an undriven.

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah. I mean the first beer that came to mind when we were doing this locally, I was thinking like a, just a KC stays Saison or something, but, um, that would have been more of a pain to procure, procure, and it would have been more expensive too.

Austin Grippin: Very much so.

Colter Wilson: Which is funny because I could tell you right now, when you look at the VAT 92, this was not an inexpensive beer. Right. We’re talking it’s, it’s not, it’s a 500 milliliter. This isn’t a, a full seven 50 or anything like that, but it was still in that 15 to $20

Ryan Pachmyer: No, it’s a three 75, man.

Colter Wilson: yeah. Sorry. It’s a three 75, not even a 500.

It’s a, it’s a small bottle

Ryan Pachmyer: You can get, you can get to a seven 50 of the regular boom for cheaper than that.

Colter Wilson: exactly. And, and so the idea is that it, when you look at. It costs in comparison to things like a Casey, at least you’re going to get a 500 or a seven 50, even though you have the additional cost. So in all reality is probably pretty similar in price.

Ryan Pachmyer: I mean in case he’s not that much. I mean, what is the case he stays on is like 18 bucks. There’s 20 bucks.

Austin Grippin: 18 to 20, depending on the variety.

Colter Wilson: Andy would have,

Austin Grippin: Although I, I did a recent funky blender for like 16 bucks. So.

Ryan Pachmyer: But, I mean, when I think of like straight sour, I guess fruited, Orrin, fruited from Colorado, like Casey’s the one that really comes to mind first in my mind, but drew makes some good stuff and, uh, there’s several other people that are making good stuff. Black project would have been a valid one to go with, but black project’s not cheap.

Cliff Sulivan: When you’ve got a dump rate of, you know, a lot of these spontaneous producers, they’re dumping 30%, you know, right off the top that makes for a pretty high overhead, I think for materials.

Ryan Pachmyer: the more experimental guys, like I’m sure if someone like Casey is probably not dumping anywhere near that number at this point. Um, I would guess.

Cliff Sulivan: I spent about six or seven years doing a lot of spontaneous beers as a homebrewer and I’d dump rate was about 50%, you know, it was pretty, it was pretty brutal. The, the,

Ryan Pachmyer: That’s probably my dump rate on those. I’ve mostly done projects, spontaneous projects with ’em. Club members like full barrel type things. And, uh, yeah, I’d say half of them were not up to what my standards would be, you know, too much vinegar, kind of obvious flaws like that, not into it. Um, but I I’d imagine guys like Troy Casey though.

They they’re so on top of their, uh, production and best practices that they’re, I bet their dump rates probably like, I don’t know. What do you think? 10, 15% Navy Austin.

Austin Grippin: He probably is that low. He seems to really have that culture nailed down at this point.

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah, but I mean, there’s plenty of other breweries across the U S and I’m sure have dumped half their beers, almost a third of their spend for so many stories or just served a really shitty beer. I mean, we’ve all had so many of those, uh, sour producers that have served something that definitely should not have been bottled.

Colter Wilson: Can’t

Austin Grippin: Yeah. And you mean a nice tasty sour stout?

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah, I still have not had a sour beer with roasted malt that I have.

Austin Grippin: I like nightmare on bread, but I don’t know if that has roasted malls. It is.

Ryan Pachmyer: That’s a good point. I don’t, I don’t think it’s roasted either. It’s been years since I had it, but I like that one. And, uh, I know it has some chocolate, and I remember that it had some kind of chocolate going on, but I’m not sure it had roasted, but that’s a good one. That might be the one. Actually that’d be another one to do.

Crickets. Dave would have been a good, a good example as well. They’re so bread forward though. Or at least they used to be.

Austin Grippin: But tried it they’re spontaneous blends yet, but they did want a gold medal for one of them at GABF.

Ryan Pachmyer: I mean, they make great beer in general. They’re clean beer is very good as well. I mean, those that, that IPA and that Keller pills, they’re both really, really tasty beers.

Colter Wilson: delicious.

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah.

Colter Wilson: Uh, so let’s, let’s move on to the third beer. And this is cliff spear, and I just cracked it. And this thing is definitely alive Very, very well, but, but that’s good. It means it’s going to be very well carbonated. Uh, I just cracked it. It didn’t, it didn’t, it’s not bottle bomb or anything like that, but it’s definitely growing out the top of my bottle.

Ryan Pachmyer: I mean, in my mind, I don’t know Austin correct me if I’m wrong, but in my mind, you either served these kind of still, or you serve them like, you know, super sparkling, at least that’s, that’s been the way I’ve approached it before.

Austin Grippin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, the higher, the carbonation generally is kind of what they’re really shooting for. Um, I mean, that’s why they have like, uh, dry Fontaine and has the decanters for sale. Like, Hey, sometimes I get over carbonated, let them to camp for awhile, but yeah, I’ve, I’ve had some of the primitive still stuff, which is interesting.

Ryan Pachmyer: I had one of their, uh, of their beers at the outer range. And it was really good, but I haven’t, I haven’t gone up there and I haven’t had their, uh, out of the plastic bag kind of thing.

Austin Grippin: I think I may actually had it at big beers.

Ryan Pachmyer: Uh, very pretty beer,

Cliff Sulivan: I think almost five volumes. So

Ryan Pachmyer: like out.

Austin Grippin: Ben,

Ryan Pachmyer: that’s awesome. Champagne.

Cliff Sulivan: yeah.

Austin Grippin: it does kind of have that nice sparkling over for the tongue. Great. Like high carbonation bite to it.

Ryan Pachmyer: It’s kind of funky barnyard smell a little bit of that. Muterric sort of smell in there as well. And the nose.

Colter Wilson: I have to say what I pour this beer. It’s just beautiful. You, you pour it into the glass and it’s got it’s so sparkling it’s clear. It’s got that beautiful golden straw color to it. And it’s it’s got this foamy white head that just sparkles up like champagne and then dissipates. It’s a cliff. This is a beautiful beer. And I’m going to

Austin Grippin: Yeah, honestly, really balanced. It has the nice kind of like cheesy funk going on. It’s very drinkable.

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s closer to the Boone than the true, um, but it kind of has some elements of both almost like it. Um, The Boone tastes a little more older, more aged, um, whereas the true tastes more fresh and has the hops. This is kind of, uh, you know, it seems kind of somewhere between as a lot of that fresh flavor in there, but it has a sophisticated, uh, complexity of the Boone has

Austin Grippin: Dries out really nicely. At the end of every step too, then there’s no really over bitterness, you know, from too many, just using too much hop in the original group. But

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah. I feel like I’m tasting hops in it though. Not like the true one where you get like that citrus kind of thing, but I’m getting kind of that I think to some that earthiness there and some of that bitterness, there is from a little bit of hops, a little more than the Boone probably. Um, cause I’d be hard pressed to find any hops in the boon.

Austin Grippin: I agree.

Colter Wilson: I just to recap, I would say pretty much the consensus is that this beer, first of all, is, is a beautiful beer. It’s a perfect pale straw color has a white head that dissipates quickly is very effervescent. I, I think that from what both of these guys have said is it’s the right balance of hops to, to sourness.

And it’s, it’s got, this is a very clean, dry finish. Is that a good.

Ryan Pachmyer: Absolutely. Yeah, the flavor is very pleasant on that dry finish as well. I was saying before it’s sophisticated, like the Boone, but it has a lot of fresh flavors, like the truth. Um, and you get just a little hint to that kind of earthy hot hoppiness in there, bitterness and hot flavor, uh, which you don’t get in the boon, but it’s not inappropriate at all.

It’s actually nice. I mean, the Boone uses, I think the Oak barrel and Oak flavor to kind of help balance everything. Um, and I think you used like a lot of traditional gooses use, um, a little bit of hop flavor. There’s a little bit of hot balance in there. Very nice though. I like it a lot.

Austin Grippin: It’s definitely a little bit more, um, as a little bit more of that lactic acidity there, I would say it in the boom goose, but it’s not overbearing. It’s very delicate. Um, yeah.

Cliff Sulivan: No, no lactic acid bacteria in that at all. So, um, there’s a lot of lactic sourness, but I don’t know if you want me to tell you about the beer at all or anything to kind of

Colter Wilson: Now now’s the time. Let’s talk about how, like let’s dive into how you made this beer, because I got to admit for a home brewed lambic example of beer, this is right up there is a really good beer. And so I I’m curious, I want to know how you made it.

Cliff Sulivan: Greenbelt is pretty simple. It’s just 70, 30. Um, it’s a blend of pills and pale malt and, um, flaked wheat. Uh, four ounces of aged tops. Um, the mashing just to a single infusion mash, uh, at about 160 degrees for about 20 minutes and a short boil, just a 60-minute boil. Um, What makes it unique as this beer doesn’t have any Saccharomyces Britannia Macy’s pediococcus or lactobacillus in it.

So it’s, um, it’s fermented with, from a, I’m not associated with a use bank from a use bank, uh, from a use lab over in Maine and it’s fermented with, um, he calls it alternatives to alternatives. So when I, when I read about it, I was super curious, but it’s, it’s a blend of lactic acid producing yeasts and, um, And some other alternative microbes, like, um, Debaro my season worker, ham mic’s, um, things that will ferment work, but, and produce asset as well as ethanol and carbon dioxide, but typically the main drivers of fermentation.

But in this case, he put together a blend and, um, I was just really curious what it would do. So. I put this beer together a couple of years ago. And it’s been it aged for about a year in primary, around 60 degrees. And then it’s been in the bottle for about a year.

Ryan Pachmyer: So the two year aged, uh, single batch

Cliff Sulivan: Yeah, March. Yeah. It was just a, a small niche. So I just threw it in a carbo.

Ryan Pachmyer: Interesting. So technically the, um, the boon, did we lose him again?

Cliff Sulivan: No.

Colter Wilson: We lost Austin this time.

Ryan Pachmyer: Okay. The boon gurus that we have, um, was brewed in late 2014 and bottled at the end of 2016. So, yeah, here’s, I mean, it makes sense. Yours tastes fresher than the boon. The boon is a little older, um, less acidity that might be because of your blend or it might be because of the age. I’m guessing it’s because the blend though, interesting stuff.

Wow.

Cliff Sulivan: So just, just kind of knowing that, um, you know, that the beer was made with this kind of non-traditional, um, you know, organisms that kind of, it’s cool to get a third-party evaluation to kind of see if, you know, my blame brain plays tricks on me when I’m trying to evaluate my own beer, you know, it’s, it’s pretty much impossible, but,

Ryan Pachmyer: What are your thoughts on it?

Cliff Sulivan: no, the, the asset, it doesn’t have kind of like the, the. The complex acidity that, that I feel you get from a lot of, uh, lambic style beers. You know, you don’t get that wine, like a city that rounder acid profile. To me, the acid’s a little, little sharp, kind of more like, um, sweet tarts, I guess, as opposed to full and round, like, you’d get like a fine wine or, or some of the better lambics.

Ryan Pachmyer: So retards her Starburst as what I would say. Yeah.

Cliff Sulivan: Yeah.

Ryan Pachmyer: I can see that totally as well.

Cliff Sulivan: I know that some, um, The  and the work, I have a mightiest from what I’ve heard from, from lab folks, it’s, it’s kind of similar to Botana Macy’s and in some of the flavors it produces. And then this has a lot of, of Pichia in it, which is another weird little, little bug that creates a lot of precursors that, uh, that makes some pretty nice flavors, um, in the, the end product.

So a surprised, the amount of kind of traditional funk that’s in it for non traditional. If I’m producing things. So yeah, it’s, it’s cool. Beer. Uh, it’s almost 8%. So the, the OJI was 10 58 and it it for a minute bone dry. So, um,

Austin Grippin: Four and a half. Five.

Ryan Pachmyer: And I think this is this acid profile is just asking to like put raspberries or something with it, or cherries

Cliff Sulivan: Yeah. I thought the same thing. Yeah. That it’d be a really good fruit for deer.

Ryan Pachmyer: perfectly fine on its own. I mean, uh, The only time I’ve judged, like European sours has been at big beers a few times. Um, and after two times I’ve decided not to judge European sours on a weekend of a beer festival. But, um, I mean, this, I could totally see this meddling. I mean, that’s a stiff competition and uh, I mean, you, you wouldn’t that last year, didn’t you, Austin?

Was it European sours at you?

Austin Grippin: Uh, no, I wouldn’t for American wild

Ryan Pachmyer: American wild. Okay. But, uh, yeah, judging European sours. I mean, I would not be surprised at this place in the top three, if it were a, you know, depending on what’s out there, but yeah, it’s really good.

Austin Grippin: Absolutely. It’s, it’s a beautiful beer.

Ryan Pachmyer: Um, I mean, trying it side by side next to the Boone, I think it falls just short. The Boone has just a little too much depth and complexity, but I mean, what do you expect? The fact that it’s even, I mean, I’m drinking them side by side in like an, a, both the fact that I can even do that as a pretty good Testament to this beer.

Okay.

Cliff Sulivan: appreciate it.

Colter Wilson: Now I, I, now personally, me, I’m not a big sour drinker you know, I do drink sours occasionally, but it’s, it’s not a type of beer that I personally seek out. Uh, I’m more of a. A traditional kind of dry Saison style is more of my kind of European style. But I have to say this beer that you’ve made cliff is a beer.

I could actually see myself sitting down drinking th th the acidity. Isn’t something where, and, and probably because of just the way that beers are made here in the States, I feel like they go for acidity for acidity sake. They, they try to punch you in the face with it. It’s, it’s kinda like how I, I think it’s just really the way Americans make beer in general.

We like to, if we have hops, let’s pump up hops, right? If we’re going to have bitterness, it’s got to have a thousand ideas in it. If it’s going to have juiciness, it’s going to be the juiciest thing that it looks like orange juice. It’s going to be sour. It’s got to be as sour as our gets like. There’s no subtlety to American styles of sour beers and.

I have to say this beer is so well-balanced and, and I’m blown away that it is actually a very non-traditional, uh, culture of, of different yeasts and bacterias that aren’t normally used to make beer, because I feel like this does hold up to very traditionally brewed styles of beers and holds up really well.

And the fact that you threw that surprise in there to me is, is kind of mind blowing because

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah. How did you find out about that cliff? Tell us more about, uh, how you found out about this eastbound.

Cliff Sulivan: You know, just the milk, the Funko Facebook group, you know, I’ve kind of been participating in a field. I I’ve kind of fallen out for the last couple of years. I’ve just kinda gotten off Facebook in general, but, um, one of the members there kind of open up his, open up his own yeast lab over in Maine and he kind of made a post about this.

It just looked really interesting because I I’d heard about and played with some of these, um, some of these things in beer, but never. To this extent to where they were, the driving force behind the fermentation, you know, I’m picky as in a lot of stuff, but it’s, it’s always in with Saccharomyces and Bret and things like that.

Um, so yeah, just on, on milk, the farm key, he put it together and I, uh, I ordered a few years ago just out of curiosity and was kinda blown away. I, it, for a minute to dryness in like a week, which was, you know, Kind of blew me away, how, how fast it was. Um, and, um, he says that depending on the carbon sources and stuff in beer, that it can do a lot of different things.

So this unfortunately was the only beer I played with it. I just kinda life got in the way, but, um,

Ryan Pachmyer: Does he still

Cliff Sulivan: pardon?

Ryan Pachmyer: does he still sell the yeast strain?

Cliff Sulivan: I think so. Um, I actually pulled up his website and, um, Yeah, my maniacal yeast labs. Um,

Ryan Pachmyer: I’ve heard of them. Yeah.

Cliff Sulivan: yeah, if you’re on, you know, the, if you search me up the funk on Facebook, you’ll

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah, I’m in that group as well.

Cliff Sulivan: Yeah. He’s an awesome information source.

Ryan Pachmyer: Awesome. Yeah, we’ll have to check that out. Maybe culture, you can link that in the, uh, the description or the, the notes of the, so

Colter Wilson: Yeah. I’ll I’ll link I’ll link that use luck. Do you know what the actual yeast blend is called?

Cliff Sulivan: It’s called alternatives to alternatives. So it’s, uh, yeah.

Austin Grippin: Appropriate name.

Cliff Sulivan: Yeah. And he has a great, um, if you, if you go on his website, you click on the home. The pro Bureau is link. You’ve got this great Excel spreadsheet. Um, that kind of we’ll go into details about what’s in the blend. There’s a ton of stuff in it. Um,

Ryan Pachmyer: yeah, next to the true one. I think it comes down to subjectivity. Really. If we were just judging this against the true. Totally could go either way. And I like the true one as well, but I mean that happiness and the true is pretty heavy and apparent. So it just goes down to what you like. Um, they have both of those.

Yeah.

Colter Wilson: like to follow all on one side or the other and against the true I go with Cliff’s beer all day. I think it’s a better, and it’s a better made beer.

Ryan Pachmyer: mean, if I was in the mood for a goose straight lambic, I, I agree with you. Um, The hoppiness is fun in the true though, but yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s totally different. I mean, if it was, if it was a competition, BJ CP, uh, and you’re talking about the goose category or something like that, um, yeah, cliffs would definitely overtake it easily.

Many people would disqualify the trivia for hops, but that’s not, uh, that’s not necessarily what it’s about either.

Austin Grippin: Yeah, I did look up the true hops. Uh, they use SaaS Mandarina and Magnum.

Ryan Pachmyer: Oh, okay.

Austin Grippin: So I definitely get the Mandarina and I definitely get some like peppery ness from the saws.

Ryan Pachmyer: That Florida bit that I was getting is probably size as well. Huh? Interesting. I wonder why they use Magnum. I mean, usually use Magnum for like a clean bitterness, but you don’t usually

Austin Grippin: Yeah. There’s not much.

Colter Wilson: where you could get that bitterness from though. You, you kept saying, Hey, I keep getting bitterness from the hops. I mean, magnums of really high alpha acid.

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah, but I mean, I’m mostly getting flavor on the hops and just, it doesn’t take a lot of hops in like a goose lambic sell beer to be obvious. I mean, if you put like a traditional 15 IVs in the beer, it’s going to taste totally wrong.

Colter Wilson: It’s it gets blown up.

Ryan Pachmyer: That’s why I’m surprised at this Magnum in this.

Colter Wilson: Yeah. So quick question for you. You, you did say there were ancient hops. Do you know what the hot bill is of those aged hops?

Cliff Sulivan: No, I, I think they’re like Mount hood from 2005 or something. Um, I’d have to check the bag, but, uh, my Sportage. Yeah. They’ve lived there forever. So.

Ryan Pachmyer: Can you do with Arizona and you just use old hops or do you have to buy old hops or do you do something else?

Austin Grippin: Uh, sometimes I buy old hat sometimes I just buy way too many hops. And then I ended up with old hops.

Ryan Pachmyer: you go. I’ve got a couple of in the closet that have sat there for years and a couple more in the freezer that had sat there for years. So

Colter Wilson: at least in the

Austin Grippin: Yeah,

Ryan Pachmyer: do you, uh, do you store them, do you store them in the freezer as well then Austin? Or do you just keep them out when you’re using old hops for these kinds of beers?

Austin Grippin: the old hops, I just leave them out. I currently have hops out in like my storage unit in the backyard, just being like the, just do what you want to do.

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah. I mean, it’s just there for the antibacterial properties, right?

Austin Grippin: Yeah, exactly. Not really looking for flavor. So for betterness,

Colter Wilson: So you’re, you’re, you’re trying to actually tone that down for a sour beer.

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah.

Colter Wilson: go, don’t go over 10 IB use 10 IB uses too much.

Ryan Pachmyer: I mean it’s, I mean, it’s supposed to balance the alcohol instead of the hop. So that’s what you ended up kind of it’s like a replacement

Colter Wilson: All right. So let’s, let’s, let’s talk about the iron beer challenge that we do have here, which is basically we’ve got Cliff’s beer that he had submitted as a lambic style ale. And then we are going up against the goose boon bat 92. And if we were to take those two, you know, w what would you say, Ryan of the, that 92 versus the beer that was given to us by cliff?

Which one would you go for?

Ryan Pachmyer: I’m going to answer the VAT 92, um, just because they added depth and complexity that it has. Um, but they’re both into discussion. And if you had the drew in there, I’d probably take clip spear as number two. So, um, yeah, that’s, that’s the way I see it.

Colter Wilson: Awesome Austin, your, your thoughts.

Austin Grippin: I feel the same as Ryan. Uh, the boon gurus is just very complex. I mean, he’s been doing it for so long. It’s a little bit unfair and it is like go-to goose for me. So, and the fat 92 is delicious, but I agree with Ryan that, um, yeah, plus beer is number two for me. I, I like the true, but. Really for, you know, it’s a middle of the road.

It’s delicate, it’s balanced. I could, I can drink a seven 50 of this. Most likely.

Colter Wilson: Awesome. If you were judging this beer in a competition, what score could you see? Cliffs, beer, getting.

Ryan Pachmyer: High thirties, low forties. I’d say, I guess out of 50, usually at BJC P usually you can sometimes I think the lowest score I’ve ever gotten that’s metal, there’s like low thirties. Um, but 50 is like a perfect score, but most, most people will never give a perfect score, no matter what it seems like. So usually if you get low forties, you at least get a metal.

So I would say like high thirties, low forties, um, which could be enough to win a competition, uh, in its category could be enough for bronze, just depending on what, uh, other beers fall on it. There’s no like obvious fall to I’d say like, you need to really improve X, Y, or Z.

Austin Grippin: Yeah, I don’t have like real specific critiques. I mean, this is really how the fermentation went, how the beer turned out and I think it’s delicious and. Enjoyable. So it’s really tough to say, you know what? I would really, you know, say to improve upon the next iterations because I also haven’t messed around with this very unique East culture.

Ryan Pachmyer: It’s almost like drinking an IPA. That’s really good. And. It may not be the best idea you’ve ever had, but it’s a very good IPA and you’re not going to sit there and say like X, Y, or Z is wrong. It’s just like, you know, maybe a different hotline could make it slightly better. Um, in many other hotlines can make it worse.

So, um, yeah, it’s very good. Very good beer.

Colter Wilson: Cliff. Do you have any questions for these guys?

Cliff Sulivan: No, man. I’m glad you guys like it. It was super fun. A bear for me to make, um, definitely like to play with the culture more. I’d love to see what there is to deal with with wood and Oak, you know, cause this was just an all glass fermentation. So, um,

Ryan Pachmyer: a little bit of wood and it’s definitely some fruit would be fun.

Cliff Sulivan: The only thing, it scares me about this, that lactic acid yeast, you know, it’s not really inhibited by hops, you know? So if, once it’s in your brewery, you’re going to know it’s in your brewery. So, um, I’m not sure I want to put this in a barrel that I ever want to reuse for something else just gives the acidity gets just completely away from me.

There’s no way to dial it back.

Ryan Pachmyer: Sure.

Austin Grippin: Yeah, I definitely understand that. I try to keep my culture as tame as possible, but you know, that doesn’t always work out.

Ryan Pachmyer: What about putting something like Oak chips in a, these kinds of beers? I’ve never done it personally. We’ve only done barrels, but I don’t know. You guys might have experience with that.

Cliff Sulivan: Are you to use them? Go ahead.

Austin Grippin: I only use Oak chips or cubes in stouts. I’ve never tried them in any more in any mix from style beers.

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah. That’s the same for you

Cliff Sulivan: Made wine. You know, we, we use a lot of Oak cubes and Oak spirals just to save, try and extend the life of a barrel a little bit and put more, put more Oak into the wine, but I’ve never really messed with them with beer too much.

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah, I wouldn’t put fresh Oak obviously, but I’m just wondering if you can kind of replicate the process by throwing a Oak. That’s almost completely used up. So you just get a little tiny character from it. I guess it’d be hard to go between neutral and not doing anything and actually doing something.

Since the Oak is often the barrels off in a holding vessel for these kinds of beers. More than anything.

Cliff Sulivan: There’s some Oak powders out there that are really interesting, that are actually meant to be added at primary fermentation for wines.

Ryan Pachmyer: Those probably give up way too much tannin though, right? No character is my guess.

Cliff Sulivan: My guests, but, uh, you know, I, I’ve just, I li I just heard from them about, from a wine maker, like a, a few weeks ago, but it’s kinda interesting that supposedly it adds a lot of, um, you know, vanilla and a lot of smoother rounder, tannic flavor, as opposed to the kind of the more harsher, um, you know, kind of tanbark type character.

So, um, I dunno, something that I’ve wanted to play with with beers, you know, adding. Getting a hold of some of this Oak powder and adding it, you know, at, at East pitch and kind of seeing what it does. Cause you know, seeing what the vanilla and the Oak do when they’re, um, put into primary fermentation, see if there’s any transformation that goes on.

Ryan Pachmyer: Interesting. Hmm. Well, thank you for sharing this beer. This is excellent cliff. Good one to, uh, you know, start the inaugural, uh, beer chef episode.

Colter Wilson: I agree. This is, this was, uh, a beer that when, when he was like, yeah, I’m going to say to you Olympic beer. I was like, man, we’re, we’re going. We’re going with, uh, we’re. I was thinking like a Cree male, but we’ll go with the lambic.

Ryan Pachmyer: I was just hoping it wasn’t going to be like, you know, like a vinegar bomb kind of thing.

Colter Wilson: No, it was far from it. This was an amazing

Ryan Pachmyer: Yeah. The complete opposite.

Colter Wilson: Yeah, I, I actually, uh, cliff in, in our conversations, just me and Ryan talking back and forth together, I actually was like, no, man, we’re going to get homebrewers to send this good beers. And, uh, thank you for making me right today.

Cliff Sulivan: Yes that I can do it. Glad you liked it.

Colter Wilson: Awesome. So just to wrap this up, uh, thank you so much for being part of this and. Taking the time and effort to ship this beer out to us and letting us taste it. This is wonderful. I am going to send you a scrubber ducky set. So after this, just get me your address. You can just DME it in discord and I’ll get it sent out this week.

And, uh, you know, that’s just my way of saying thank you for taking the time to be part of the show.

Cliff Sulivan: Awesome. Thanks for judging. Uh, I appreciate it.

Colter Wilson: Now we’re going to jump into some of our feedback. First, I’d like to read some feedback that I got on discord. This is some feedback from machine whisper. I thoroughly enjoyed the episode 64 rerun of the Remix. I may go that way eventually. How many home brewers out there thought. I have bought enough parts to make five inch ice spindles, but have only made a couple. 

That’s where I’m at. I can not justify spending the money on controls. When I have so many other higher priority things to buy, I cobbled together an electric kettle and a controller on the cheap. And it works great. And by my next build, I’m going to be more automated for an electric brew in a bag kettle controller, based on the leftover web 

Minis and the runs to the Voda ties. Brew mechanics, ESP 82 66. It is amazing how much you can do with it, with that little board. It’s designed to use an LCD 2004 display in a four button key pad, but also has a web server interface. I will upload the beer XML file and then set itself up accordingly. 

The PID has an auto tune feature too. And it looks pretty powerful as I got mine operational on a keyboard using a D one mini. Three transistors three resistors achieved. K Y dash Oh one nine relay and the pups up from a buzzer. And an SSR for the element. I’ve already had. A corded DS. eight, B 20 probe. 

In the thermal well, but that looks like it’s going to get started and it had a keypad LCD and an IO expander later. I wanted to put that in the detachable 3d operated. Control panel. 3d printed operator control panel. How about this episode about brewing with the ESP 82 66. Maybe I could help after I get mine done in brewing. 

And, you know, machine whisper, I would say great. If you’ve built all of this using nature as P. 82 66. I would love to have you come on the show. I’d love to have that conversation. I also did give him some feedback that he should look at for men. Track is a good controller also. Um, because it does use the D one. 

Mini as the controller and also to look at brew blocks, even though you do have to buy the hardware for that, it is a pretty built out hardware system. And it does do both fermentation and. A brewery. So those were some, some advices of some projects to look into, but that being said, I would say machine whisper. 

You go out and you’ve built this controller out of all of these ESP, 82 66, and you turn it into an open source project. I’d love to have you on the show. We’d love to talk to you about it. So. Uh, yeah.  

I have one more piece of feedback from Milwaukee, too. And he said, so I was, and this was also from our discord server. So. You know, this is a great place to come and interact with the show. Love the discord server. But this is what I heard from Milwaukee to, so it was reminded today of one of my one time, all time. Favorite beers. 

Which has since been retired from a local brewery. 

And it was a beer called light burn from lakefront brewery. And. Here’s what he said, as I remember it fondly. If as I remember it, fondly and lamented, that I would likely never taste it again. I thought why not brew it? Does anyone here have a recipe that I could find. And I know that I might have some trial and error, but I wanted to find a decent starting point. 

And the style of beer that this is, is actually a Doppelbock and, you know, Ryan and I kind of hopped in and we were like, Hey, Milwaukee. Check out, maybe the German brewing Facebook group, but then he, he actually responded to us later and was like, Hey, I reached out to the brewery and they were kind enough to share the recipe sheet. 

And here’s his scaled-down version and he shared it with me. And this looks like a really solid double buck recipe. So, what I’m gonna do is I’m actually gonna take this shared recipe and I’m going to add it to this week’s show notes for a Double Bock. And this is a clone recipe for the light burn from the lakefront brewery. So just if, if, if you’re curious about this beer hop on checkout the show notes on the website, homebrewing DIY DUP year, and there will actually have the recipe in beer XML. You can just download it and import it right into your brewing software. 

So one last thing, if you do want to leave us feedback, you can always send us an email to home brewing diy. beer, to set over to our website and click on the contact banner. Or you can send an email over to. podcast@homebrewingdiy.beer, either way. You’re going to get it to us. Another way to submit your feedback or just to talk to us is if you go to the website, homebrewing, DIY dot ear, hit the join, the discussion tab that will get access into our discord server and. 

There you can interact with not only me, but all the other brewers that are in this community. It’s a good time. It’s a, it’s a small, but growing community of home brewers that are on discord and we love just chit chatting about beer. So it’s a, it’s a good time.  

   I’d like to think cliff Austin and Ryan for all taking the time to hop on a video call and to record it and to really sit down and do this chef beer, beer, chef competition. It was a, it was a really fun time. I enjoyed the beers that we tasted. And man, it was really good time. I was so surprised at how good cliffs beer was. Not that I didn’t think he was going to send us a good beer. 

Uh, I, I kinda knew what we were going to get great beers here, but cliff, this was a really great example of a wonderful beer that you had made us. So I want to thank you for doing that. You can find homebrewing DIY on all the socials. So head out to Twitter, Instagram and Facebook, just look for all one word at home brewing. DIY were there. 

Interact with us. Talk to us. We’d love to hear for you. Well, that’s it for this week. And we’ll talk to you next week on homebrewing DIY.