Today I talked Joshua Steubing and Todd Burns of the Home Brew Happy Hour Podcast. Todd is the owner of CM Becker and Keg Connection in Comanche Texas. Todd has many years brewing, supporting brewers, and they are so knowledgeable when it comes to kegging systems. WE had them on the podcast and discussed draught systems and some ways you can overcome issues like foam.
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CM Becker: https://www.cmbecker.com/
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AI Show Transcript: It will have errors
Colter Wilson: One of my favorite parts about building a brewery is actually building out the draft system, whether it’s a Keizer, whether it’s a tower, just building one out is a good time and a great project today. I have Josh Steuben and Todd burns from the Homebrew happy hour podcast. And we’re going to talk all about drafts.
Systems today, DIY.
Welcome back to homebrewing DIY. The podcast that takes on the, do it yourself, aspect of homebrewing, gadgets, contraptions, and parts. This podcast covers it all on today’s show. We’re talking to Joshua studio and Todd burns of the Homebrew happy hour podcast. Todd is also the owner of cm, Becker, and keg connection down in Texas.
And we’re going to go into a deep dive with them about drafts systems and things that you can do. Tips and tricks for dealing with foam all the way to some of the best. Faucets that you can get so very, very fun episode today, and I’m excited to have them on the show. But first I’d like to thank all of our patrons over a Patrion.
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We also have our June brewers round table. It is now been officially announced if you had to home brewing diy.beer and click on the events tab, that will take you to where you can sign up for our homebrewers round table. It’s open to any of our listeners or really anyone who would like to attend. And this month we’re talking to Brian Rabe of low oxygen brewing.
He’s going to give a small short discussion and then open it up for Q and a to all of our listeners to really have a cool discussion about the low. Oxygen brewing method. So head over to homebrewing, DIY dump beer and click on the events tab. I’d like to read some feedback I got from last week’s show about grain mills.
I got this from Jimmy choo over on Reddit, and he said to me, I like your podcast. So please keep the episodes coming honestly, though, 10 minutes for an intro to a 30 minute episode is way too much. I know I can skip the intro, but I just want to give you some feedback. And while I do totally agree that 10 minutes is a little excessive.
I think last week I just had a lot of announcements to make, uh, between feedback and new. Things that are happening in the home brewing DIY world. It did take a little bit, so I really do appreciate the feedback and I will try to be more conscious of how much time the. Announcements at the beginning of the episode are taking.
So that being said, I am going to then pivot right into our episode, but only after I tell you that if you would like to give us feedback, you can always send it to podcasts@homebrewingdiy.beer, head to our website and hit the contact tab. And you can fill out that form and it’ll send us an email, or if you hit me up on social media, I’m on Instagram, Twitter.
And Facebook also on Reddit, but just look for at home brewing DIY all one word. So let’s jump into today’s episode. We’re going to talk about draft systems and we’re going to have the crew from the Homebrew happy hour podcast.
I’d like to welcome my two guests here on the show today. I have Josh Stubing and Todd burns from the homebrewing, the Homebrew happy hour podcast. Welcome guys.
Joshua Stubing: Hey, thanks very
Colter Wilson: much.
Todd Burns: Oh,
Colter Wilson: awesome. Well, I I’m so super happy that you guys are on my show. If any of you do listen to Homebrew happy hour, you’ll know that a couple of weeks ago I was actually on, on their podcast and I had a great time being on the show with Josh.
And, uh, why don’t you just start off by maybe telling the, my listeners about Homebrew happy hour and maybe some of the things that you guys cover.
Joshua Stubing: Yeah, absolutely. So Homebrew, happy hour. Uh, we’ve been doing since 2015 as a Q and a podcast. Uh, we had a good, I think it was 14 months of not producing any content after.
I mean, we did it for like a year. And then we stopped doing it. I don’t like talking about it really, but we, we, um, when we started back up three years ago, we added James Carlson who couldn’t be on here unfortunately now, but he’s the director of operations for cm, Becker, Todd. Who’s the other cohost on the show right now with us is, uh, the president.
And we call him the chief keg washer of cat connection. And I do all of the marketing stuff for Todd’s brands, but yeah, the show has started as just a Q and a for people on line. Drafts systems, mainly in catching stuff. That was our expertise. And, uh, we’ve kind of grown into, you know, interviewing people in the industry, other podcasters like yourself and taking questions all across the spectrum.
Cause now we have abscess, fortunately in house or our industry friends to take questions on. You know, uh, brewing solutions on ingredients, building recipes, uh, equipment for fermentation, all of the above. So it’s really cool seeing where the show’s gone over the last five years now that we’ve been doing it and, and kind of, you know, the community we’ve been able to build from just doing this kind of goofy podcasts from our offices, you know,
Colter Wilson: Exactly and Todd, I I’d like to know a bit more about maybe cm, Becker and tech connection and how long those have been around for.
Todd Burns: So a keg connection we started about 13 years ago, uh, approaching 14 years, I believe now, right? Josh, we’ve been doing that. And then. You’ve also see a Becker I purchased about four years ago. It’s actually been in business in the United States for about 35 years. And it’s a kind of parents or sister company in Germany.
For over 40 years. So we’ve been building faucets and flow control type faucets and disconnects for the home brew industry for, for a very long time.
Colter Wilson: And tech connection is more of a general homebrewing shop. Is that correct? Oh
Todd Burns: yeah. Well, we started kind of connection was, it was really, we specialize in kegging and draft beer and that’s pretty much all we did for many years.
Actually a large part of our business. Now, our ingredients, Homebrew supplies and all those types of things, but you know, our original passion for the draft is it’s still very evident on the side because we, uh, you know, it’s kind of our, I would say our biggest category and the, and the, the category that we’ve put the most focus on.
Uh, we actually purchased another signed about, uh, I guess that was. It’s been a little over two years, almost three years, but it’s a whole brew supply.com and they were very focused obviously on the Homebrew supplies and that part of it. So now we’re doing everything between the two sides. So that’s been a lot of fun for me because, well, my passion has always been the home brewing and I’ve done it for many, many years and still enjoy doing it almost on a weekly basis now.
So
Colter Wilson: yeah. So let’s talk about your guys’s Homebrew setups. Uh, uh, Josh, what are you brewing on and what does your setup look like right now?
Joshua Stubing: So I, my house, I brew with my pop. That’s my favorite thing about home brewing. It’s always been, uh, the communal side of it or the community rather side of it. I like, you know, we’re not, we are about to form.
I say about two, we’ve been talking for the last five years, basically about starting a home brew club in South Austin. But, uh, one of these days we’re going to get to it, but my pop and I brew all grain, batches and 10 gallon. Volume on a cooling, like an igloo cooler type of system. Uh it’s you know, old school, but it’s, you know, what works for us because we’re outdoor brewers, which in Texas, isn’t a super, a popular thing right now, as we’re going into summer with us too.
It’s not the best time to be, uh, outdoor Bruin, but we make it work. We start early if it’s staring to get hot in the day, but we, um, yeah, we use a cooler system for the most part. Do an all-grain batches. I just brought home talk about cooler equipment. I don’t know if you’ve seen the spike. Uh all-in-one I think they’re calling it the spite solo.
They sent us a prototype. And, um, a buddy of ours who came down, he, uh, Kenny, he he’s, he calls himself the brewer of Seville. We tried to do a brew day when he came to our headquarters on it and it failed miserably and the beer got scorched and it was all just a mess. So my dad and I are going to either this coming weekend, or sometime in June, do a actual test batch on this.
So I’m excited cause I’ve never use an all in one that was not like a grandfather type of system. And I would love to have that become our primary for 10 gallon batches, because then that would mean we could brew inside. And it wouldn’t matter that it’s 105 degrees outside in the middle of the day. We could brew in the comfort of air conditioning.
Cause I am a man of convenience.
Colter Wilson: I couldn’t agree more on the going electric. I, I, it’s a big goal of mine in the next year is to actually go a hundred percent electric. I’m still a propane burner on a Kaggle out in the garage and not I’m in Denver, Colorado, not super hot, but still it’s. It has to do with things like, I want to be able to brew on a whim and just do it in my kitchen at seven o’clock at night and not have it be a big deal.
And those all in one systems really appeal to me for that reason. Uh, yeah. Todd, what is your. W what is your setup? Look like?
Todd Burns: I have a three best, a three vessel Herms system. It’s a 20 gallon. So I get between 15, 17 gallons at a time. I also have a glycol ferment, a glycol fermentor, so that I can keep things cool.
Carbonated, all that kind of all the bells and whistles on it. I’ll tell you people talk about. Not liking to brew in the summer. And I’m like, we’re really talking about that’s my favorite time to prove it’s too hot outside. Right. So I love the system. I’ve brewed on pretty much every system you can possibly imagine.
And this one’s my favorite. I do like the, the cooler system as well. It, to me, you, you know, you, the way that you brew on her, this is efficient and. And to me, it’s a very easy system to brew on, but this farm system is a change me as a brewer, the amount of consistency that I can get out of it. It’s just amazing.
I almost never have a bad batch of beer anymore. It’s you know, every once in a while there might be a, I didn’t do something exactly. Or the recipe was one that I wasn’t real happy with, but. For the most part, as long as you don’t make really stupid mistakes, uh, you can brew pretty damn good beer on it.
So I actually, since I say really stupid mistakes, I should mention a good example of that. The system does not work good. If you forget to put your false bottom in it and you get all. You know, like 30 something pounds of grain and pour the water in there. I did that on my second to last brew. Uh, so, uh, that was a lot of fun pulling everything out from the false bottom man and put it back in again, but the veer actually turned out.
Great. So
Colter Wilson: sound sounds like a hot scorching mass, but then it’s funny how you do those types of things in the note that beer turns out fine. And then you worked on a beer. Really honed in the recipe, try to do everything perfect. I’m doing it for this competition. And it’s kind of the,
Todd Burns: it was really funny cause I’m screaming.
What, why is my mat? Why is it sticky? How’s it keeps sticking. I can’t get it to flow. What’s wrong. And then I look over and see my false bottom sitting on the counter and I’m like, crap. So you know what those things happen. And it’s part of brewing and yeah, you can recover it and have the best beer you’ve ever brewed.
I’ve had it happen more than once.
Colter Wilson: Yeah, I, I can use an example. I did a batch on a friend who owns a brewery and he had a small system at his brewery that he was using for test batches. And he called me up and was like, Hey, you want to brew on my test, my test system. And I was like, great. And in the process of him letting me use his stuff, I decided to just throw straight hops in there and not were pull.
And I. Totally clogged up his plate chiller and ended up having to use ice wands, like from the kitchen dipped in sanitizer to cool down my, my words. So I could pitch it and ended up being one of the best saisons I’ve ever made. So it’s, yeah, those types of things always happen. And that’s just part of, of brewing in general.
Um, when it comes to, you know, electric style brewing, like, you know, these Herms systems, uh, do you really like when, when you. You specifically talked about, this is the most consistent beer that you’ve really been able to make since starting to brew. What do you think it is about an electric style system that allows you to have such good consistency?
Todd Burns: The one thing is just the temperature. I mean, I’m able to keep the temperature so consistent and you, one thing I’ve learned, bring on the system is no matter how many times you calibrate it, no matter how many things you do. It’s you, you still have to always get out a thermometer and check it, but you know, you can make adjustments that the adjustments are fairly slow, but, but they’re also again, very consistent.
So what I’m trying to err on the side of, if, if I’m going to have the temperature not perfect in the beginning, I tried to do the strike that I like it to be maybe a little lower than it should be in and then start to raise it up because if you, you know, if you get it too high, There’s obvious consequences of that.
So, uh, that seems to work really well. And then pretty quickly I can get it to, you know, if I’m trying to mesh it one 52, I can give it to that one 52 and keep it there the whole time. And you know, that’s, to me, the temperature is everything. When you’re, when you’re brewing. If what you’re looking for is that consistency.
Colter Wilson: I couldn’t agree more. And so for example, this brewery controller that you have, it has a PID built into it. Is that right?
Todd Burns: It does. Yes and no, you can also, well, you can it’s well, so I should back up a little bit. We have used about five different controllers and we’ve really been trying to perfect the controller because eventually we would like to release a system like this, but.
I’ve never been fully happy with the controllers and this, the very last controller that we got is literally a dial that you turn. And the old one, you can do a lot of steps and these types of things, which you could do with this one. But I found that if you keep it super simple, Then you don’t have a lot of variables and you can control things better.
But if your temperature is say it’s two degrees off, according to your thermometer, versus what your probes say, you know, you just dial it that direction that you needed to go, regardless of what the, of what it says and you get to that temperature right away. So
Colter Wilson: exactly. And that’s something that I personally do all the time is I go based.
I have a thermometer that I know is calibrated. I calibrated all the time, you know, do the ice water test, make sure it hits that exact 32 degrees. And then when I go and do my temperatures and, and I’ve been using, for example, my neighbor has a mash and boil system and I’ve been going over and borrowing it and using it.
So I could have an electric system for the last few batches. And I found that there’s a lot of variables. In the column. Right? So for example, if your probe is sitting at the bottom of your column versus the top of your column, you want to get temperatures throughout that entire column, correct? Right.
Todd Burns: So we, we actually, on my system, I have a probe permanently on the top and the bottom.
Colter Wilson: Yeah.
Todd Burns: The temperature reading. It’s very different. So I always try to shoot for us. I’ll take my thermometer kind of stir right in the middle while I’m taking the temperature. And then I go off of that. I consider that to be my temperature. No right or wrong. That’s the way I do it. And I do use it. We have a company in the United States called Kessler that we, that we bought real precision thermometers with hydraulic or Shrum.
And I use a Callow. I have a calibrated lab thermometer from them, and I use that to calibrate any other thermometer I’m using. So it’s know it works. It works really well.
Colter Wilson: That’s awesome. I, I kind of wish I had access to something like that.
Todd Burns: And so, you know, it’s great. We, we, we have them and it so accurate already that sometimes they’re, they’re quite a bit more expensive and sometimes you feel like you, uh, you kind of got ripped off because the calibration is, you know, it’s like, uh, at one 52, this thermometer reads one 52.2 and you’re like, wow.
I didn’t need a calibrator. Who of course I didn’t know that. Right.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. Well, and that’s the thing is, is that if you don’t have. Uh, calibrate it. And I give you an example. I had a meat thermometer once, and this is a cooking analogy, but I had a meat thermometer once that somehow got whacked whacked out of calibration.
I didn’t check the calibration before I cooked a Turkey. And it said this Turkey was done. I went and cut into it and it was pink as hell inside. And I ruined an entire Turkey and it is important to have your thermometer calibrated more important than people might give it. And it’s something that a lot of people don’t do.
I at least with homebrewers that I brewed with. Yeah.
Joshua Stubing: Yeah.
Colter Wilson: Yeah, super common. Uh, let’s let’s talk a bit about draft systems since you guys definitely talk a lot about draft systems and you know, this is homebrewing DIY. We, we, we talk about people building keys all the time. We talk about people, uh, taking.
Different refrigerators and hacking them into kegging systems. And I know that you guys get a ton of questions when it comes to people building out their own kegging systems. If I were today, a brand new home brewer, and I wanted to go from bottling to kegging, what would you say are the essentials that I would need to keg?
If I wanted to do it at least to the most beginner level.
Todd Burns: Oh, you know, we, we have kids are literally in the a hundred dollar, low hundred dollar range, sometimes even under a hundred dollars that will allow you to keg. Uh, now if you, if you have a keg on there, you know, some, sometimes people buy our kids without a kid cause they have to have a category.
A friend gives him a character. If you have a check on there, you can still easily. Stay under the $200 range and have a system that’ll work. So you don’t. I think the perception is you have to spend a lot of money, but you really don’t. And even with a basic system that has maybe a party type fossil, the plastic sponsored on it.
When you get ready to build a Keizer or you get ready to convert a fridge, it’s literally, you can pop that off. Uh, put a shank on their drill hall and now you’ve got a refrigerator kit. So it’s, it’s not, uh, it’s not a difficult thing to do. So basically what you need to answer. The actual question is you need a regulator, do the CO2 cylinder, made the lines for both gas liquid, and then you need whatever.
And you’re going to have to dispense, which will either be. A party style faucet, a, uh, you know, a faucet with a, with a shank that you can go through a, a hole with, or obviously a beer tower, the other option.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. And let’s start with the party faucet. I know that I only, at this point use party faucets for their intended purpose.
And that’s, if I take beer to go as a party and obviously people always I’m sure. And I know that I’ve listened to your show and when I have people. Ask the question of like, how do I get rid of foam in a party faucet? And I know that foam in a party faucet is something that is really common. A what would you say when it comes to like foaming and foaming issues is the number one issue in drafts systems to solve that?
Todd Burns: So, w you know, we have a, we have a party foster, that’s actually a flow control faucet that you still hold in your hand. As a little trigger on it, I jokingly, or maybe seriously say that it’s a $50 solution to $3 problems. So, uh, they’re not cheap. They’re like 50 bucks, but you can put one of those on there and have full flow control, eliminate the foaming altogether.
Uh, so that, that’s what I do. I’ve actually, this is kind of embarrassing, but I’m serving my beer out of a party foster the, my partner right now because, uh, Josh and I are building this colossal Keizer. For a whole group con cause we’re going to do. You know, they’ve moved Homebrew con digitally. We’re going to do a presentation this year.
And, uh, I was like, Oh, we’ll build a Keizer. It’ll take a couple of days. And I think we’re like on week two, right. Josh
Joshua Stubing: it’s coming along, it’s coming along.
Todd Burns: But anyway, uh, you know, the, the problem with foam, I think the number one issue that people have with a party faucet, when you go to a keg party or something.
Is that the they’re tapping a brand new keg. And when you tap a brand new keg, intends to foam a little bit in the beginning, but the, but what happens if you watch people is if it starts to foam, when they press down on it, they think that if they don’t press down in his heart, that that, that will keep it from foaming as bad.
And it has exactly the opposite effect. If you only press down a little bit, he calls a bunch of turbulence and you get nothing but fall. So. The most important thing. If you have one of those, you know, $3 faucets is push it all the way down as far as it’ll go and let it flow that way. Uh, of course, temperature super important.
A lot of. People that serve. Those are serving them on eyes. So temperature typically is an issue, but if you’re not, and you’ve got warm, warmer beer, anything over 36 to 38 degrees, you’re going to get fallen with that top faucet. And then the other solution is to put a longer line on it. So, you know, they recommend a five foot line for proper restriction, uh, on a direct draw system, a three 16 side, the.
But, uh, you know, you can put seven or 10 feet on there if you’re having some foaming issues and that additional restriction will help you as well. I
Colter Wilson: I’d love to talk a bit about restricting and kind of figuring that out for yourself. Let’s say, you know, I built a Keizer for myself. I built my first Keizer back in 2014.
I’m now on my second Keizer. And luckily for me, When I was building my first Keizer, my best friend at the time was a draft tech and he had all of the tubing and everything in his truck and it was awesome. We just went and like built out a Keizer. Right. Um, and he knew how to restrict line, like in his head it was like, you know, something he did all the time, but I know that there’s kind of a mathematical equation that you can figure out to figure out how long a line needs to be.
Um, what would you say are the factors into figuring that out?
Todd Burns: Yeah, there’s definitely a mathematical equation for that. When that comes into effect, typically would be, if you’re installing a system in a bar and you’re going to do a long draw system where you have a, actually a different kind of line and, and, uh, you’re, you’re cooling the line and then you’re dropping down to the, what they call the choker line and there’s all.
And then you have to, you have to compensate for going up for going down. I mean, there’s a lot of. Complicated figures that are involved in that. In fact, that I, you know, I’ve taken a draft beer class where we talked about that for two days, but, but really, you know, people have been doing direct drawl systems forever, and everybody’s already done the calculation on that.
And I think it, technically, it turns out to be like four and a half feet, but everybody just says five feet. Uh, the, the problem you run into though is again, there’s variables. So if your Keizer is, you know, it has a controller on it and it’s plus, or minus three degrees, maybe you’re, you’re opening it up occasionally.
Cause you got a six pack in there as well. Uh, and your temperature gets higher than then you start having foaming problems or you’ve got. You know, one of the other, you over carbonated your beer, or you’re using a very highly carbonated beer, you know, because that’s the style and then all those things will affect it.
And you know, the rule of thumb is just add a little more line to compensate for anything that you might run into. That’s why a lot of people order their systems, like either a seven, 10, or even we even sell them a 15 foot alotta. I think that’s complete overkill. I mean, you and your beer is going to pour extremely slow, but I think it’s not a bad idea to put seven to 10 feet on there to mention.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. I personally do seven feet on all mine, but the reasoning being is I actually. At times try to over card my beers a bit if I’m a bottling, right? So like, for example, if I’m going to bottle straight from my system, I personally don’t have a beer gun. I should totally get one. Cause I bottle enough. Uh, but what I do is I over carpet a bit and then.
For a couple of days ahead of time. And then I go and I felt this like, you know, homebrewing, DIY, I’ve totally DIY myself, a beer gun out of like a racking cane and a picnic tap and some pretty crazy stuff, but it works really, really well. But one of the things I have to do is I have to over carbonate my beer a bit so that I don’t lose carbonation in the bottling process.
Um, You know, I know that a lot of people, when they’re asking questions about, Hey, I’m now kegging, but I want to do some bottles to go for a competition or, or just bring like a six pack with me. You know, what are some of the tools that you could get that would help with that process?
Todd Burns: Oh, you know,
I’ve tried every channel pressure bottle filler you can imagine and wait to sell different ones, but that’s the one I use now because it’s just. So straightforward and simple and B, because you’re pressuring up the bottle and putting the beer in at the same pressure, you don’t lose any, you don’t lose carbonation.
You don’t get foam coming out it’s but you know, the other counter pressure bottle fillers, and you can make one, uh, are use a similar idea that you’re. You basically open a valve and let the air in and you purchase a bottle, of course, you know, oxygenate the beer. And then once you purge that bottle with CO2, you’ve pushed the cap down and it, and it seals it and you bring it up to 10 PSI and then you deliver the beer at the same, or w I’m sorry, whatever carbonation level you’re using.
And then you, uh, deliver the pier at the same pressure. So that, I mean, that works very well.
Colter Wilson: It does. And it’s also something where if you’re feeling from a CAG, you obviously don’t have yeast and things like that in the bottom as well, right?
Todd Burns: Yep. Alright. Yeah. I mean, hopefully, hopefully we all we all have, but, uh, uh, especially in the very, very beginning, that’s one thing.
If you’re going to be bottling beer for competition or something, you shouldn’t drink a few beers out of the check first, because you’re almost certainly going to get some sort of settling, unless you’ve. You know, clarified you beer for a month and the secondary, and we’re super careful. You’re always going to get some particulates in there.
So it’s always good to pour a few beers before you start, before you start bottling up from the JAG.
Colter Wilson: Yeah, I call those the sludge beers. Um, when I first, uh, keg it, when I first put it in a CAG, I get it carbonated. My first like three or four pints are, are, the nickname is actually the sludge beer at my house, but then it’s, it’s funny as you get those three or four pints out, I do.
Tend to find my clear beers right now, hazy IPA is all the rage, but if I were going for a clear beer, I do find them with a gelatin, for example. And after that first view, it’s crystal clear and it’s, it’s amazing, right?
Todd Burns: To me, there’s nothing. There’s something very appealing. If you’re serving your beer to your, your home brewed beer to somebody that may not always drink comfort beer.
It’s always amazing to me. When you pour a perfectly clear glass and you hand it to them and they taste it and they always do the same thing, they go, this is home, brewed beer black. It’s impossible to make a good home brewed beer. You know what I mean? People are amazed when you have. A good tasting beer, but also a very clear beer.
I would, we had a, uh, I have a group of guys that go opening weekend of deer season with every year and somebody else brewed a keg of beer and gave it to us. And we, yeah. And it was just every one was cloudy. And when I asked him about a letter, he’s like, Oh, that doesn’t really bother me, but it does bother people that aren’t used to, you know,
Colter Wilson: Exactly and well, and a good example is like when the hazy IPA first started hitting, I would say three years ago, and I would be listening to homebrewing podcasts such as Homebrew happy hour, just kidding.
Uh, but the idea is that, uh, I would be listening to podcasts and beer commentary and reading it. And they would all be like, Oh, this orange juice beer, or this doesn’t look like the way beer should look. And it took a long time for people to really be on board of having like a crystal clear IPA. Um, because the haze is all the rage now, right?
Joshua Stubing: Oh, that sounds like our podcast. I think you were listening to us.
Todd Burns: My cohost sometimes negative. Oh man, that’s concerning, uh, hazy beers in some other styles of beer. I don’t always share the, uh, uh, the belief, but I do have to tell you, Josh, uh, I poured a sour the other day. It came in at 12 packs of samples and I poured it in the glass and sat down.
And I said, I don’t know why Josh is like this, these sours, this smells great. I took a sip of it and it was. The most God awful beer, I think I’ve ever had in my life. So.
Colter Wilson: Well, I have a bit of a story like that. My neighbor across the street, he always works great American beer festival every year. Cause we’re here in Denver, uh, and sad that great American beer festival in 2020 is also going to be a remote conference. So it’s, it’s heartbreaking to me, but he always got, got an allotment of beer.
Because he worked at the festival and that was kind of one of the ways that they paid them. And he got this case of a sour beer that was probably the worst sour I’ve ever had in my entire life. And I still have a ton of them that I can’t even bring myself to drink and I can’t bring myself to give away, but because it’s beer, I can’t get myself to pour it out.
So
Todd Burns: a couple of Josh that’d be great if you,
Joshua Stubing: Hey man, I’ll do, I’ll do an Instagram chug challenge. Great.
Colter Wilson: So, so question Josh, do you not like sour beers? Is that a thing?
Joshua Stubing: You know, I I’ve been accused of that. I don’t get it. I don’t understand. No, I can’t. I’ve had one sour in my life. It was at great notion in Portland.
We were there for Homebrew con a listener, uh, and his girlfriend took us on a tour. Me and me and Joe who works for Homebrew supply and is also on our show frequently gave us like a tour. They drove us around. And they’re like, Joe loves hazy. Joe loves sours, Joe, you’re going to love this place. Josh just come along and they had one that was called like blueberry muffin from great notion.
And I’ll tell you what, I didn’t, uh, make a weird face when I drank it. Now I’m not gonna go out of my way to buy it. Well, you know, sours, I’m just happy that there is a niche. For people to drink what they like, like, I, my pop his favorite beer, whether he admits it today still or not is lone star. I don’t know if you’ve ever had Lonestar guys.
Colter Wilson: I’ve been to Texas. I’ve had a little,
Joshua Stubing: it is not very good to me, to me, but I, and I always tell him, cause sometimes he’ll get embarrassed and I’ll say, pop drink, what you like, who cares? If people there’s a reason why Lonestar is still on the shelves? It’s not because nobody. Doesn’t drink them and nobody doesn’t like them.
And so with sours, that’s my approach. I’m willing to try them. I just haven’t found one that I’m willing to endorse.
Todd Burns: I have to say one thing real quick, Josh. That’s not true. Exactly. And there was another shower you’d like when we toured a new Belgium, you at least told them that you liked one of the
Joshua Stubing: sours because I’m polite.
Todd Burns: Uh,
Colter Wilson: new Belgium has really good sours. So if you didn’t like those ones,
Joshua Stubing: no, I, and I forgot, you know, and this was so long ago we went, we, it was like, right when we launched the podcast a month later, one of our vendors got us to hook up and get, and their director of, uh, quality assurance or field director of quality or whatever is Matt Meadows.
It’s true. I mean, he, you want to talk to a guy about draft. He wrote the book on it, right? Like on draft standards. And, um, he gave us this long tour and did our podcast, or he did our podcast first and we’re like, Oh, thank you for your time. And he goes, well, I took the day off. Why don’t we just hang out?
So he gave us this bad thing tour. We went and got, you know, beer right off the line. And, you know, by the time I had the sour in my hand, I was probably pretty sloshed. So a probably did taste good. I couldn’t tell you which one it was Todd, do you even remember which sour that? No,
Todd Burns: I doubt. I’ll tell you.
What I do remember is that I was so impressed with their sours, that I bought the bottles and brought them back. And, uh, Michael Corcas is the German guy that I bought C a Becker from him and my dad. My dad’s 85 is probably, you know, Eddie too. Then I said, man, I brought this bottle back. I paid $20 for it and I’ve saved it.
I want to have it with the two of you. And I opened it and it. Yeah. So I really liked their sours, but the one I bought literally tasted like vomit
this period. They both took a sip and they were trying to be very polite. I said, guys, you don’t have to drink that. And they both, they poured it out so fast and I’ve never seen either one of them move faster.
Colter Wilson: You know, that is the risk. That’s the risk you could take with a sour is, uh, you know, you think that because it’s blended and, and all that kind of stuff, then the next thing you know, uh, the one bottle you bought is his vomit.
Yup.
Todd Burns: That room, they have a new Belgium. You, you may have been there.
Colter Wilson: I’ve been there a couple of times.
Todd Burns: Absolutely. One of the most amazing things I’ve ever seen with those.
Put a man,
Colter Wilson: uh, the food Wars. That’s what they’re called. Yeah. Uh, well, and the thing is, is it’s actually one of the coolest sour breweries I’ve ever personally been in. Cause when you look at, at other sour brewers, they, they tend to do it. Like, you know, smaller barrels are how their, your, their barrel aging, it like your standard, like maybe 55 gallon, like wine barrel or something like that.
Yeah.
Todd Burns: And they called it the forest. It was really, really native. I was impressed.
Colter Wilson: And new Belgium uses the traditional, like food eaters that you get from. Uh, they actually ship them in from Belgium and that’s what they use. And there is really an amazing. Sour brewery and it’s completely separate of their clean beer brewery.
Like it’s, it’s in a completely separate area and they put a lot of real estate into it for Al beers that they don’t release a lot of. So that’s kind of a it’s, it’s kind of a niche thing, um, that you don’t see a lot of the sour beers from new Belgium outside of Colorado anyway. Right? Yeah. Uh, let’s, let’s get back into a bit more onto a draft system.
Cause I have a question that I’ve been dying to ask you guys, and here’s, here’s why I personally have never used a flow control tab in my brewing system. I have just, you know, the, the, the forward ceiling type of tap, which works great. Why would I want to flow control versus just a regular tap?
Todd Burns: I’m telling you right now, you don’t, you don’t want to use one because if you ever use one, you’ll, you’ll spend a lot of money and never go back to another tab.
So, I mean, no matter what’s happening with your beer, you can, and that knob and changing the restriction and get a beer that pours perfectly. So if you’re, you know, if you’re having some foaming issues, If you’re a, you know, your temperature goes up, do you have another, or like another good example you talked about over carbonating, your peer.
So if you have a beer that you serve at a size 18 S the equivalent of 18 PSI, cause most people understand PSI better than the other ways I measure that. Uh, And a good example of that would be something actually Coors is served or around that. I think it’s about 16 or 17, but anyway, uh, occurs would be a Coors light would be a good example of that, but a better example would be all the Belgium beers.
Well, and then you’re also serving a stout and you’ve got them at the equivalent of like eight PSI. You don’t have to have two different links of line. You just, you just turn the knob and get it adjusted for that specific beer. Uh, so it’s, it’s, it just makes life a lot easier. And there’s always very well.
I mean, my, my kegerator and my, I have a kegger and render Keizer here right now, you know, I opened the door of checking something. I’m always getting the temperatures off a little bit and know I just make that adjustment. So it just it’s it’s we actually, my understanding is Cornelius submitted it and really brought, or at least they’re the ones that brought it into Europe.
And the Europeans embraced it. And then, you know, it was an American company that did all that. And then we didn’t, we never did it here because we were used to doing it the other way. So now we’re starting to see a lot of bars and restaurants go to that because it just makes. It makes things so much simpler and easier for the, for the, uh, the person at the bar.
So I’m sure we’ve all been to a bar where they’re pouring beer and the law and the person is literally has a glass and they’re putting foam in the glass foam with the glass. And then they, you know, they, they, they just tip it over and let the foam come out and they keep pouring it. So they’re pouring like two veers to get one beer.
And with this, they can eliminate that and it saves them a lot of money.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. And the other, the other question I have is, you know, when I first built out my first Keizer, I had a, that type of faucet that’s I call them the cheap. They’re like brass. They stick. If you leave them sitting for a long time, you know what I’m talking about?
They’re the
Todd Burns: false wood for over a hundred years now.
Colter Wilson: Yeah, exactly. So that, that faucet was my first mistake of kegging. Um, I no longer do that, but my question is, is, you know, when you talk about higher quality faucets, you talk about going stainless steel and forward ceiling. What is, what are some of the advantages of having stainless steel versus brass and, and having it before its ceiling versus back ceiling?
Todd Burns: Oh, you know, stainless steel, it’s just, it’s such a.
Okay product, but it’s also, you don’t have the issues with possible lead contamination, the Chrome lining coming off. Some of these things that people, people worry a lot about now, uh, you know, it’s, it’s kind of funny. You have a good example would be a faucet in your house. You know, all the faucets now are NSF rated and they don’t have any, any brass that has led in them.
And they’re very, very careful about it. Well, most people like you’re in Denver, you’re probably getting your water through pipes that have lib welds and I’m underground. Right. Because they’ve been there 75 years. Right. So what will the draft peer system there on plumbing in and do the whole thing? So at the end, everything else is almost, I mean, everything we sell is going to be.
Food grade NSF rated lines and clamps and everything else. So at the end, you know, why not put something on there? That’s that you knows going to be not only sanitary, but not having any contaminants in it. So that’s the reason for stainless as far as, uh, forward seal. You, you nailed it earlier when you said sticking faucets.
If you know, if you have an old style faucet, When you close a faucet, you’re basically closing beer up inside the faucet and it’s going to be warm and it is going to stick within probably a day or so, if you’re in any sort of a warm environment, whereas with forward seal, it’s kind of, it’s a little confusing to people cause you think forward seal means it.
You know, sales in the front. So why wouldn’t there be beer truck that way it’s because when you, when you rear sill at your, you’ve got a chamber that you’re trapping and whereas with forward, so you’re, you’re literally trapping it at the very, very front and, and, uh, and you’re not trapping any beer in there permanently.
So
Colter Wilson: exactly. Uh, one last question I have is geared around, you know, Technology and, and kegging systems. Um, you know, there’s a lot of obviously kegging systems out there that are new right now where it’s like trying to get how much beers left in your keg kind of information. Right. I know that the old way of doing that was using flow control sensors.
And I know at a home brew level, there’s new products like the Plato keg, where you can just use the weight of your keg. Um, have you guys used any systems like that and what are your thoughts on them?
Joshua Stubing: You know, I have what, Oh, hold it. I’ve used it once. And it didn’t work that great. A floating ball that’s magnetized and have a little magnet on the side of the keg.
That just right. So as it goes down, it shows you just an eye level of what’s left in your keg. And obviously you sanitize it before you throw it in there. But that, that is as much as I was willing to invest at the time. And to knowing, uh, I love the idea that the plate, like the weight one, I think, Oh, what’s his name on Instagram, his name George, but I think East mill Bruins, what he goes by real popular Instagram thing,
Colter Wilson: East mill Creek brewing George George.
Joshua Stubing: He’s a such a good dude. And, um, I believe he started using the Plato, that weight sensor didn’t he? And it just looks phenomenal because
Todd Burns: it’s.
Joshua Stubing: Precision technology to know, like you’re not guessing, right? You’re not guessing now don’t get me wrong. The magnet on the side of the cake, I probably wasn’t guessing, but it presented issues, you know?
I had an off flavor at one point in, early on and I blamed it on it. So it was my scapegoat. I was like, Oh man, it’s about ball. Good enough. That’s why this beer sucked. Not anything that I did, but no, me personally, I haven’t. And I would love to hear what Todd has to say because Todd and technology is like peanut butter and insert something terrible.
Todd Burns: Good. Thank you, Josh.
Take my hand and pick the keg up and feel how much I do it fairly frequently with my kegger writer. And I, you know, the other way I know it’s empty is when it goes and shoots foam out. I, I I’ve never used anything and I’m guilty of that. I probably should try some different products and I’m open to that.
But, uh, I usually. I usually just pick them up and show how they are. That’s fine. That’s fine. I know where the level is.
Colter Wilson: I gotta be honest. This is what I do too, but I, every time I see that, that, that ring out there, that people are setting their kegs on. I’m like, Ugh, but, but you know what I actually want to use it for is not my keg.
My CO2 tank is what I want to use it for. No
Joshua Stubing: kidding.
Colter Wilson: The gauges on the CO2 tank are never, right. Is everybody going to be agreement on that?
Todd Burns: There, the problem with CO2 is it’s a liquid. Yeah, they’re right. But they’re only reading PSI and they’re not really wider volumes. So
your high pressure gauge starts to go down. Then that means you’re out of CO2. It means you only have air lab or CO2 lab and you don’t have it, but it’s not in liquid form. It’s so that means that you’re pretty much out of CO2, except for that 800 that you’re working from. Uh, the other thing too is when you put your CO2 in your kegerator, it’s going to read, you know, 400 and something PSI.
And when you put it in your garage in Texas, it’s going to. 1200 PSI until the pressure relief valve blows out. Right. So,
Colter Wilson: yeah, I actually have mine outside. The, my keys are in, have it, you know, drill. I drilled a, a sealed hole for my tubing to go in. Cause I didn’t want my tank inside. Plus I have a 20 pound tank.
It doesn’t fit my kegerator very well. Uh, But that’s, that’s always been my thing with them is like, you, you never really know how much gas you have until it’s like right at the end. Cause once that gauge actually does start to drop, like you said, you know that you’re right at the end. You’ve got, you know, when I worked in a, in a bar, in a restaurant, I knew I had hours left.
If I could see it actually move.
Todd Burns: Cause we were here that long. Yeah, it’s simple to always have an extra two silver because you just have no control over it.
Colter Wilson: So exactly. I always have a backup it’s specific specifically if you’re in a commercial setting, uh, for me, it’s, you know, I have a 20 pound tank. It takes me years to get through it.
And then when I do get through it, I just go down and get it filled that day. But that’s yeah, it’s usually a mission critical
Todd Burns: to get through mine too.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. So I highly recommend right now that everybody gets 20 pound tanks, because then you only have to fill them every few years,
Todd Burns: if you can fit them in the system and everything. We know it’s funny, you know, we, we sold 20 pound tanks for several years and they just did not sell. I mean, everybody tends to buy five pounds. I don’t really, I guess it’s because they’re putting it. Maybe they’re putting it in there. Their fridge or their, you know, we sell fives and tens, but w we just couldn’t sell twenties.
I think if you’re going to use a 20, you’re probably better off getting it from the gas company anyway, and just do an exchange. Cause it stays in hydro and everything. So that’s probably, it might be a better way to do it.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. Well, and that, that is the case. Actually, when I get mine done, I have to get it filled.
And then. So when I go to my local home brew shop and get it filled, they have to fill it. They can’t swap it. Right. Cause they don’t swap twenties. Um, and luckily my guy does fill, but then, uh, the funny thing is, is that with the 20 pound tank, um, I’m actually to where it’s about to go out of date and then I’m going to have to swap it or get it recertified anyway.
Todd Burns: So what I would do is go to an actual gas company. Yep. And, uh, and swap it with them and they should still swap it if it’s a day, even if it’s close.
Colter Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. They’ll totally swap it. And even then, if you go to that thing, gas company, they can at least certify it for you, right?
Todd Burns: Yeah. Sometimes, uh, some of them, a lot of gas company it’s well specialize, a lot of them have to send it off, but they could probably send it off for you.
You know, you know, who does certify a lot or a. The people that check fire extinguishers, that that’s always a good place to look at too.
Colter Wilson: I’d never thought about that. And definitely there’s a pro tip for everybody here, listening to the podcast. Call your fire extinguisher company, if you need to get a tank certified.
And just for those that don’t know, uh, tanks like propane tanks and, and CO2 tanks do have a certain lifespan and they want to make sure that they get certified to make sure that they’re not damaged. Cause you know, if a CEO to tank, because it is pressurized gas, where to have an issue, it could technically explode and you know, do some pretty good damage if you were standing next to it.
Joshua Stubing: Pretty quick.
Todd Burns: Yeah. No, that was in San Antonio one time and a place that did a lot of hydro force at one time. And they had a cylinder that was made from basically from a bomb from world war one. And I asked him what? So what’s the oldest cylinder you’ve ever certified. And they’re like, well, that one right there is, it was a converted over to CO2 Szilard in 1919, and we’re still testing it.
Colter Wilson: And those cylinders are tough. I mean, but that’s why you have, like, for example, when you get to a 20 pound tank, I think even a 10 pound tank has to have a color so that if it falls over, you don’t break off the cap and it sprays and turns into a rocket
Todd Burns: so dangerous and people don’t take it seriously enough.
So people have been hurt and kill from dropping a seal too tight can have in it. Shoot around the room and, and, uh, you know, seriously answer them or kill them. You really should have a chain around it. And you know, any larger tank, you should definitely have a card on it.
Colter Wilson: Yes. Yeah, I totally agree. And, uh, a chain is also a great idea.
You don’t want them falling over. They’re just, you know, they’re pressurized gas guys,
Todd Burns: but
Colter Wilson: yeah, exactly. Well, I, I want to thank you. You know, I want to think Todd, I want to thank Josh for coming on my show today. I really had a great conversation with you, with you all about homebrewing and kegging systems and everything you guys are doing down there.
Um, if I wanted to find Homebrew happy hour, where would I find it?
Joshua Stubing: You can go to a Homebrew happy hour.com. Sorry. That was my radio voice. Um, yeah. Hope your happy hour.com is our main website. Cause we also, uh, at the last 18 months we kind of relaunched our site and we have a ton of actual content on some of the topics that we cover on the show or some topics we haven’t covered on the show yet.
And we produce a lot of videos and put it, there are YouTube channels, youtube.com/homebrew happy hour. And we’re on all social media as Homebrew happy hour. And our podcast can be found anywhere you download podcasts. So whatever you like to use, I’ve noticed lately that, uh, you know, it’s been Apple for the longest time, but Spotify has really picked up.
It’s crazy how many people are using Spotify now to consume podcast? I’d never, would’ve never would have thought maybe. St. Joe wrote him for that, or I don’t know if that’s just been a trend and I haven’t been paying attention,
Colter Wilson: but now Spotify is really invested in podcasting. It’s kind of crazy. What’s going on over there.
They, they good for them. Good for them. And I also think that it’s something where, uh, they also own anchor. So there, you know, where I am actually hosting this podcast and also a sponsor of the show. Uh, so the idea is that, uh, you know, anchor is also owned by Spotify, which is into podcast hosting, which I think is now the biggest podcast host out there.
I think more on anchor than any other ones
Joshua Stubing: I believe. And I’ve heard anchors. Great. Yeah. I forgot they were owned by Spotify. Yeah. Spotify is just taking over.
Colter Wilson: They’re making a play. They’re making a play into podcasting. Well, we’re running up on time. So I want to thank you guys for coming to the show and I’d love to have you back some other time.
And, uh, thank you for being on Homebrew DOI.
Joshua Stubing: Thank you for having
Todd Burns: us. We really enjoyed it.
Colter Wilson: I want to thank Josh and Todd for coming on the show. It was a really great conversation. And. Always loved talking about draft systems and all the things going on over at the Homebrew happy hour. Make sure you head over to Homebrew happy hour.com and check out their podcast. It’s a really fun and cool show.
And like you said, it’s a Q and a show. You learn something new every week because people are asking questions. Well, that’s it for this week. And we’ll talk next week on homebrewing. DIY.
